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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2009, 02:38 AM
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Do i need to use both crank case and head breathers on a s&s 113

I have a question that has me a little confused . I have a S&S 113 motor and i am curious do i run both the head breather system as well as the crankcase breather. The purpose of this question is that recently I put a K&N filter in my S&S Super G carb with the stock breather set up. With improved air flow from changing to the K&N it seemed to be sucking oil like a venturi into the carb from the Head Breathers soaking my filter and creating a consistent oil drip. I have looked up every type of search that I could concievably think of on CC Forums yet was unable to stumble across any info probably my own search fault. I recently capped the breather fitting on the back of the carb mounting plate and reconfigured my Head breather setup. How I set it up is as follows from each breather a 4 inch in length by 3/8 ID fuel hose to a Brass tee and about a 19 inch in length same fuel line from tee to a mini filter. I called S&S Tech Support like I have done on occasion in the past and the gentleman I spoke with told me that he would cap the crank case vent and run just the head breathers now it would seem that I have already had my question answered. Unfortunately this is not the case because after I capped the crank case vent it seems that I am hearing upon accelerating a twanging sound that I had not heard before. My exhaust setup is an LA choppers 2 inch slashcut drag pipe with 1 inch in diameter by 3/16 inch thick eye bolts installed in the last inch of my pipes for back pressure. I had installed my exhaust modification at the same time. Is it possible that the combination of capping the crankcase vent and added exhaust back pressure create a mechanical problem that i should not have. Do i need to re install the crankcase vent with the head breathers? I also wanted to thank all of you CC members you guys are fantastic without you Gypsy, Mr,Scary, John from Scooters Performance just to name a few I would have been totally screwed and I would have a garage full of parts and my wife would have served me with divorce papers.
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:51 AM
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Your motor will rev higher, quicker, and easier - and perform better (especially at high rpms) - the better that it can breathe

So Whatever you can do to get those pressurized, highly corrosive gases out of the crankcase - the better it will run, and the longer it will last

And breathing through both the heads and the case is the best means to that end

And since your motor is a 4 stroke, and not a 2 stroke, you did the right thing by keeping the oil out of the intake

When you open up the case vent (in addition to the heads), your motor is breathing easier. And because those toxic gases being expelled are laden with an oil filled mist - your going to get more oil coming out with the additional gases - because it's breathing easier

That's a good thing

The only disadvantages to breathing both ways is that you'll get more oil in your intake (if that's where they're routed), or in your filter or on the ground

A small price to pay for a freer breathing motor
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:59 AM
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You can run the hoses from the head breather right on down to the ground to stop the oil mist going into the breather area.

That's a pretty common thing around custom circles.

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Old 03-22-2009, 03:50 AM
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Thanks for the replies. Hey Merlin thanks for taking the time to explain. What I did today is made a Y connector out of 3/8copper tubing and sweated with solder the seams as to join head and crankcase together on one filter this worked rather well. Perhaps I forgot to mention in my first post that after changing my head breather configuration I would get a strange twanging noise when I let off the throttle or downshift. Tody after hooking the case vent back up twang still there. I never really thought that the crank vent could change the dynamics of what sounds like a lifter issue but then again crankcase pressure can do strange things from what i have heard.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:19 AM
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I am not sure that venting the crankcase is 100% positive modification. The manufacturer spends lots of money to develop that sophisticated positive cranckcase ventilation system and straight venting to the atmosphere might (could be) not be a good thing for the motor.

Now you say you are hearing noises (twanging).

I think the first thing in order is to find out what's happening.

The reason I am even bringing up this issue is that I don't know what that might do (crankcase venting direct to the atmosphere) for the motor. Good or bad.

One reason: Oil scavenging. Does crankcase pressure aid the scavenging of the oil that collects in the bottom of the crankcase get back to the oil tank? I know that getting the excess oil out of the crankcase adds horsepower. That's a fact!

Another: Does backpressure in the crankcase add any positive measure to the compression stroke. Does it help with the oiling of the piston in any way? The pressure I'm talking about. Does it help reduce blowby in any way?

I remember in earlier days seeing that pipe coming off the motor (automobiles) and noticing a steady exhaust looking kind of crap being emitted. They stopped doing that because of the EPA rules. So what if you revert back to that on a motorcycle motor.

I mean it would be a simple thing to drill and tap a hole directly to the crank area and install a hose to dump on the ground. How much oil do you think would be going out the hose?

I sure would like to find out more about this particular aspect of the motor and would consider doing it myself if I thought it would be beneficial.

Please continue and let us know what's happening as you go down this road.

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Old 03-22-2009, 11:31 AM
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With what you did the head breathers are still functional just venting to the atmosphere instead of inside the air cleaner. On my 113 I have it vented in both places. These motors build lots of internal pressure and letting it breathe is a good thing. I use Doherty machine crankvents on mine as well to help promote ring seal. I'd guess your noise is coming from the pipe mods....
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Old 03-22-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pushrod243 View Post
I use Doherty machine crankvents on mine as well to help promote ring seal.

John,
I'm using the crank vents from Doherty as well. Now the 'junk' drips down onto my pipes

Are you using any hoses or fitting from the crankvents? When I got my AC and vents, there was a little card in the box that said they don't include the fittings and hoses anymore because they felt they weren't really needed....
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micahanjello View Post
Perhaps I forgot to mention in my first post that after changing my head breather configuration I would get a strange twanging noise when I let off the throttle or downshift. Tody after hooking the case vent back up twang still there. I never really thought that the crank vent could change the dynamics of what sounds like a lifter issue but then again crankcase pressure can do strange things from what i have heard.
I don't know what your twanging noise would be

But any mechanical issue would be HELPED, not hurt, by breathing easier

Think of it like walking around all day with a cigarette butt stuck into one of your nostrils

You can still walk around and function to some degree. And if you've had that butt in your nostril your whole life, that's all that you know

But when you take the cigarette butt out - you realize how much better you feel, and can perform



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Old 03-22-2009, 02:18 PM
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Sure. Go Ahead...rag on the smokers.


Rag on the drinkers while you're at it.













LOL LOL LOL
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:30 PM
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OK, OK

I'll change it to a Tampax





LOL LOL
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Last edited by Merlin Hawaii; 03-22-2009 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:14 PM
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I just was about to post and accidentally hit the wrom button an shit gotta rewrite again. Cant post for a coupla hours I have to finish my yard work or my old lady is going to freak. Question how do you add photos to your post? By the way Merlin has there been any good surf lately?
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
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By the way Merlin has there been any good surf lately?
It hasn't been the best winter for surf this year

Which is just as well for me as I've been out of the water since the end of Jan. rehabbing from an injury

But, a lot of rain this year, a lot of North wind, - stormy conditions
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micahanjello View Post
Question how do you add photos to your post?
I download them onto my computer

Then transfer them to Photobucket (www.photobucket.com)

Then copy and paste them from Photobucket to CC
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Last edited by Merlin Hawaii; 03-22-2009 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:03 PM
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Attachment 28758

Attachment 28759

Do i need to use both crank case and head breathers on a s&s 113-imported-photos-00039.jpg
Sorry it took so long to get back my wife has been a little edgy lately so I had to finish my yard work before I could play.Merlin that is a drag that you cant surf right now I heard this past winter was firing on the North Shore. I just got back from 12-15 foot mavericks it's kinda spooky out there cold and sharky but when it is good it is super fun. Anyway back to the subject I have attached some photos took me a while to figure out that you cant add photos from a quick reply post. Merlin thanks for the photo bucket tip. John I gotta pick your brain on this subject I believe you have dealt with some of these issues in the past. First you mentioned that you are running a Doherty crank vent is this similar to the spyke crank vent? The reason I ask this is because I am pretty tight with The fellas at Spyke some people talk crap about there products and customer satisfaction but I will tell you on several occasions they went way out of there way for me. Could you feel a noticeable difference once the crank vent was installed as opposed to venting the crank case to the atmosphere. My understanding is that S&S utilizes a one way check valve if running a crank vent on the 124 inch motors. I have read about the crank vent plus that you install it first then you put a filter after it. From my understanding is that this system is identical to the S&S one way check valve except that the crank vent plus lets minute air amounts to maintain partial vacuum and is quite a bit more cash than S&S one way valve. At the moment my crank case is venting to atmosphere. Now as far as the exhaust modification is concerned Joh you said that the twang I am hearing is probably due to the mod. I attached some photos of both my breather setup and exhaust mod. I dont know if I should use a smaller diameter eyebolt or not ? This mod has changed my mid range noticeably yet all the information on this subject that I have come across shows the setup as a flat washer welded to a bolt. Back about thirty years ago I understand that Honda had this exhaust tuner on there small 70cc trail bikes.
Again thank you to all I am much appreciative to all of you whom have been so kind to hook a brother up.

Last edited by Micahanjello; 10-09-2009 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:21 PM
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Micah, I'l throw my $.02 in here too

First off, PLEASE break your posts up into separate paragraphs. My A.D.D. kicks in, and I start to get a headache if the paragraph is more than a couple sentences long



I have the Spyke crankvents on 2 of my bikes, and No, I didn't notice an appreciable difference in performance with/without

But the principle behind them appeals to me

S&S uses a one way valve on their SuperSidewinder Plus motors (11", 117", 124") because they breath through a different head breathing system than a conventional evo style motor)

But the purpose of a one way valve (PCV) is to let the pressurized air OUT, but prevent any additional air to enter back IN the crankcase - less air in the crankcase = less pressure working AGAINST the motors normal operation = more HP and an easier running motor

So, in that sense, ANY one way valve is sufficient - the S&S plastic valve is a couple bucks - the Spyke (or Doherty) is about $100. But they both do the same thing



.
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Last edited by Merlin Hawaii; 03-23-2009 at 03:25 PM..
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