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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2015, 09:10 PM
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Timing headache

After reading post after post I guess you can classify me as "Slow"! LOL I an putting a new Dyna 2000i ignition in my bike and it seems like I need things laid out in 4th grade schematics! Here is my setup:
127" Ultima
Dyna 2000i SF/SC

Now do I set TDC on the front cyl then dial the ignition to retard or advance? Or should I static time it to the 25 degree mark on the flywheel then dial the ignition? Im sure its dead easy, but Im half a retahd.

Feel like Im treading water with certain things! Im just glad I dont need instructions on where my key goes!!
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Old 05-04-2015, 04:11 AM
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Make sure the front cylinder is in top dead position ( I use a screw driver through the spark plug hole to make sure)
At that point in the timing window you will see something like F: ( or whatever Ultima uses- check their manual. The electronic ignition is statically timed at TD Mark, not any other mark )
Make sure you don,t let engine to rotate away from this position while working on the other side- I secure it with a wrench on the crank nut with a long handle against the forwards.

Now the module should be loose on the 2 bolts, in the most counterclockwise position, turn the ignition on, the red led will be on, start rotating the module slowly clockwise till the light goes off..can repeat back and forth to verify the position. Now tighten in that position. Done.

Choose the most gentle curve for your engine using switches . Ride, See how it feels. Try 1 step more advanced . If it,s nicking at any points, return back to the safer one.
Another way to reduce periodic detonation or fine tune between the preset curves is to position the F: not in the center of the timing hole, but closer to it,s left edge( couple degrees retard)



On your engine total advance shouldn't,t be more than 26 degrees.

Afterwards you can time with the timing light. I never did. Static was good enough for me.

Also with a special cable( like 50 bucks on eBay) and free softer ware one can draw his own curves and program them into the module...
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113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber
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Old 05-04-2015, 04:12 AM
STEINBVG's Avatar
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Make sure the front cylinder is in top dead position ( I use a screw driver through the spark plug hole to make sure)
At that point in the timing window you will see something like F: ( or whatever Ultima uses- check their manual. The electronic ignition is statically timed at TD Mark, not any other mark )
Make sure you don,t let engine to rotate away from this position while working on the other side- I secure it with a wrench on the crank nut with a long handle against the forwards.

Now the module should be loose on the 2 bolts, in the most counterclockwise position, turn the ignition on, the red led will be on, start rotating the module slowly clockwise till the light goes off..can repeat back and forth to verify the position. Now tighten in that position. Done.

Choose the most gentle curve for your engine using switches . Ride, See how it feels. Try 1 step more advanced . If it,s nocking at any time, return back to the safer one.

Another way to reduce periodic detonation or fine tune between the preset curves is to position the F: not in the center of the timing hole, but closer to it,s left edge( couple degrees retard) and reset the module like above.



On your engine total advance shouldn't be more than 26 degrees.

Afterwards you can time with the timing light. I never did. Static was good enough for me. I,m not a dyno freak.

Also with a special cable( like 50 bucks on eBay) and free software one can draw his own curves and program them into the module...
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber

Last edited by STEINBVG; 05-04-2015 at 04:15 AM..
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:46 AM
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I totally can understand what you just described now! I appreciate it!
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:01 AM
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Stein, I static timed it and got it fired up. Sounded pretty good but some fine tuning should take care of that. After reading the pdf's on the ignition and Engine it gives a bunch of reference marks. TF, 30, 25, a dot, and R. And above the first 3 I just described it states proposed Engine size. At the 25 mark on the flywheel the pdf's mention a range of engine displacements. The 127" falls in that reference mark in the pdf. Does that mean I should static time it starting at that mark on the comp stroke?

The reason I'm asking is that even with my comp releases depressed the engine still binds making it hard to start. The batt is a new 330cca, 2 gage wires, a dedicated ground, and a 1.4 starter.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerman1378 View Post
stein, i static timed it and got it fired up. Sounded pretty good but some fine tuning should take care of that. After reading the pdf's on the ignition and engine it gives a bunch of reference marks. Tf, 30, 25, a dot, and r. And above the first 3 i just described it states proposed engine size. At the 25 mark on the flywheel the pdf's mention a range of engine displacements. The 127" falls in that reference mark in the pdf. Does that mean i should static time it starting at that mark on the comp stroke?

The reason i'm asking is that even with my comp releases depressed the engine still binds making it hard to start. The batt is a new 330cca, 2 gage wires, a dedicated ground, and a 1.4 starter.
well. For any displacement engine, there's only one way to static time the engine- only one mark should be seen in the window- front cylinder td mark[ t:f], while the piston is on the top!!! . Any other marks should be ignored for this purpose! At leas that how i understand the issue and always did it this way.

The module takes care of the rest, including a final [ or maximum] advance [ in your displacement case-is 26 degrees!]by using a correct preset curve or drawing your own curve on a computer[ if inexperienced, use preset curve within the recommended range, starting with the most conservative- that the range i believe they're talking about]

hard starting might or might not be an issue of timing.
Remember
1) starter rolls engine at low rpm- thus effectively the spark comes at a very retarded moment- see the curve, like 0-10 degrees.[ which makes starting easier] so even if you fucked advance by incorrect static timing- it shouldn't matter that much.
2) unfortunately the factory setting of the firing of 1t spark is at zero revolutions and there's no way to change it by switches- only via computer]



now 1.4 starter in some cases did work for some gents here, perhaps depending upon specific manufacturer[ and consistency of the manufacturing].

I tried cheap ultima starters at least 1.75 and it labors with the 127, does much better job with 120[ WELL- I ACTUALLY PUT GA 1 CABLES WITH 120 SO IT MIGHT HAVE MADE THE DIFFERENCE TOO].

But 2.4 seems to be much more robust[ but eats the battery faster, less cranks and longer recovery time by the charger] with all the rest of the factors being the same.


If i were you i would try 1 ga cables before doing anything else.
FROM NOW ON I WOULD ONLY USE THAT SO I DON'T HAVE ANY SECOND GUESSES ABOUT THAT.

Cheers
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber

Last edited by STEINBVG; 05-12-2015 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:41 PM
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I hate to say this but I think you are going to be disappointed with that 330 cca battery on the 127...even with compression releases held down...
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Old 05-13-2015, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shovel52 View Post
I hate to say this but I think you are going to be disappointed with that 330 cca battery on the 127...even with compression releases held down...
Why is that? A lot of guys run a 300 or a 310 and are more than fine. Regardless I had the battery conditioned and it's now spinning the motor no problem at all.
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Old 05-13-2015, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shovel52 View Post
I hate to say this but I think you are going to be disappointed with that 330 cca battery on the 127...even with compression releases held down...
I don,t know...

In my experience

Cheep Ultima battery 310 cca and starters fire easily my ultimas 120"/ 1.75kw and 127"/ 2.4kw with compression releases in and s&s 96" /1.75 kW without compression release...

I forget at times compression releases on both big ultimas and the starters hesitate a bit with this funny 'eeee' humm on the compression stroke and fire anyway.

I try not to forget the compression releases, not to burn abrasions on the big solenoid washer - with every addition of those, the starting current will increase and put more strain on the system.

As far as battery concerned - 270 cca is definely weak , but 310 + cca seem to do the job.

I had Braille 400+ cranking amps battery and didn,t see significant difference in any weather. In my mind it doesn,t justify the money... Lithium batteries - never tried .if I run out of space, I'd, rather build more Amper hrs and cranking power by hooking in parallel several small lead batteries before trying li...
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber

Last edited by STEINBVG; 05-13-2015 at 07:37 PM..
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2015, 05:32 PM
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I tried a 330 cca battery in my 127 and it was no where near enough..It would crank when it was cold if you hit it just right..but in a situation where the engine heats up it only gave a couple of chances. Wonder if Ultima makes some 127 engines high compression and some other not..anyone know if that might be the case?..I am using a 600 cca on mine and still have to have my ignition set to kick start...so I can hit it as it's going down and coming back on compression..with both compression releases held down at the same time..
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Last edited by Shovel52; 05-13-2015 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 05-13-2015, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shovel52 View Post
I tried a 330 cca battery in my 127 and it was no where near enough..It would crank when it was cold if you hit it just right..but in a situation where the engine heats up it only gave a couple of chances. Wonder if Ultima makes some 127 engines high compression and some other not..anyone know if that might be the case?..I am using a 600 cca on mine and still have to have my ignition set to kick start...so I can hit it as it's going down and coming back on compression..with both compression releases held down at the same time..
I have newer Ultima engines - circa 2012 and 2013 , I wonder if cams in them are more starting friendly?
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:12 PM
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That's possible...I find it strange that some people talk about their 127 as cranking like a regular
Harley...I do remember reading an article on Ultima when they first started out..and them talking about doing slight head work because they wanted their name out there against S&S..as far as I am concerned...it's there..but I will say that when I do my first top end job I will probably go to some thicker head gaskets..
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shovel52 View Post
That's possible...I find it strange that some people talk about their 127 as cranking like a regular
Harley...I do remember reading an article on Ultima when they first started out..and them talking about doing slight head work because they wanted their name out there against S&S..as far as I am concerned...it's there..but I will say that when I do my first top end job I will probably go to some thicker head gaskets..
I would look also into trying different chain saw compression release valves instead of the ones you have.
some might do better job than others, like spit out later. Hole might be a bit bigger. Make sure you match the threads. They cost 10-15 bucks...not much to try.

By the way, perhaps it,s a good idea to clean yours, might be some carbon blockage ober the years.
I wonder, if a bit bigger side opening would delay the closing of the valve???
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:10 AM
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That's a good idea first about cleaning them..I do on occasion have to pick them back up and make sure they are not leaking..I even rode down the road one day before I noticed it..I will pull them out and soak them and give that a try...thanks...
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