Club Chopper Forums ychrome  

Go Back   Club Chopper Forums > CHOPPER SHOP/TECH AREA > Shop Talk

Welcome to Club Chopper!  The World's largest and coolest place to be on the net if you dig the following!

  •  » Custom Bikes
  •  » Killer Paint
  •  » Old School Craftsmanship
  •  » Building and Wrenching
  •  » Hot Babes
  •  » Chopper Build Logs

...then you have come to the right place!

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

Chopper Tech
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Club Chop Gallery

Club Chopper Gallery

Submit Your Photos!

Active Threads
Hard Core II builders
Last Post: Fatback
Posted On: Yesterday
Replies: 10,920
Views: 845,974
"Not the Normal" builds, from WCC
Last Post: Spade115
Posted On: Yesterday
Replies: 19,297
Views: 5,246,195
Help identifying 70's - 80's springer
Last Post: tnbkrtrash
Posted On: 10-21-2018
Replies: 1
Views: 46
Wtb: Primo open belt drive
Last Post: rkduq20
Posted On: 10-19-2018
Replies: 4
Views: 367
13 Ignition Dropping Out
Last Post: BostonShovel
Posted On: 10-17-2018
Replies: 8
Views: 319
More...
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2014, 08:59 PM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
Rear brake lost pressure, need advice.

My rear brake suddenly lost pressure when I was riding and I can't bleed the brakes and get any pressure back. I have a brand new Hawg Halter Sprotor with a new V-Twin remote master cylinder (mid 80's FX model# 42470-82A) with remote reservoir. I have about 2 miles on the bike and was going out to bed in the brakes, as I pulled up to a stop sign the brake suddenly gave way and I lost my brakes. I have drained all of the fluid out and tried to bleed the brakes. I have also disassembled the master cylinder and all of the components look good, no blow seals or rubber inserts. I have checked for leaks in my lines and I don't have any areas where fluid is leaking out. When I bleed the brakes, they bleed as normal until I get all of the air out of the line. At that point, if I don't open the bleed valve and I press on the pedal, fluid flows back into my reservoir. This would lead me to believe that it is an issue with the master cylinder, but everything looked fine when I took it apart. Any advice on what it could be, I would like to try some options to help narrow the issue down so that I don't spend a bunch of money on what I think it may be.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2014, 02:33 PM
STEINBVG's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ATLANTIC CITY, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010-14; MYSELF; 96",113",120",127"
Posts: 3,117
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boardtracker View Post
My rear brake suddenly lost pressure when I was riding and I can't bleed the brakes and get any pressure back. I have a brand new Hawg Halter Sprotor with a new V-Twin remote master cylinder (mid 80's FX model# 42470-82A) with remote reservoir. I have about 2 miles on the bike and was going out to bed in the brakes, as I pulled up to a stop sign the brake suddenly gave way and I lost my brakes. I have drained all of the fluid out and tried to bleed the brakes. I have also disassembled the master cylinder and all of the components look good, no blow seals or rubber inserts. I have checked for leaks in my lines and I don't have any areas where fluid is leaking out. When I bleed the brakes, they bleed as normal until I get all of the air out of the line. At that point, if I don't open the bleed valve and I press on the pedal, fluid flows back into my reservoir. This would lead me to believe that it is an issue with the master cylinder, but everything looked fine when I took it apart. Any advice on what it could be, I would like to try some options to help narrow the issue down so that I don't spend a bunch of money on what I think it may be.
Not sure I understood the underlined above, but at the beginning of the piston motion with the lid off, the fluid will shoot up through the feeding holes, then , as the piston keeps going, and passes them, it will compress. That,s why when you bleed, the lid is better to be on and secured slightly the the bolts.

Multiple reasons might explain why you lost the brake( as simple as the pushrod fell out). The way you describe it, you trying to tell that you think , there were no fluid escapes...may or may not be the case.

If you want to check the master, no need to disassemble it ....just pump it against the finger pressed firmly to the output you should feel the pressure build up.

When you bleed, Make sure that with you pumping you move all the way in and out, so it sucks the fluid and compresses it further down the stroke. ( as the fluid gets lower, as it should while filling the system, add a bit at a time)
__________________
VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber

Last edited by STEINBVG; 11-04-2014 at 06:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2014, 06:30 PM
pushrod243's Avatar
Club Chopper Sponsor
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central Florida, FL
Bike Year, Make, Engine: Custom
Posts: 13,602
Blog Entries: 333
Send a message via Yahoo to pushrod243
Not Ranked     
Welcome to CC! i would start by bench bleeding the master to eliminate that as your trouble as Stein suggested
__________________
John
Scooters Performance
31615 Long Acre Dr
Suite 104
Sorrento, FL 32776
www.scootersperformance.com
(four0seven)330-2056

Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2014, 12:48 PM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
Thanks for the suggestions, I will bench bleed the master cylinder to narrow down the issue.

STEINBVG: What I meant was; as I pulled up to the stop sign and pressed on the foot control, the master cylinder completely bottomed out and my brakes didn't work anymore. When I got back to my house I could push the full stroke of the cylinder piston and wasn't getting any pressure. When I pushed on the pedal, fluid would fill back up into my reservoir all the way to the end of the stroke, I have a glass reservoir so it was easy to see with the cap still tightened on.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2014, 03:13 PM
STEINBVG's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ATLANTIC CITY, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010-14; MYSELF; 96",113",120",127"
Posts: 3,117
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boardtracker View Post
Thanks for the suggestions, I will bench bleed the master cylinder to narrow down the issue.

STEINBVG: What I meant was; as I pulled up to the stop sign and pressed on the foot control, the master cylinder completely bottomed out and my brakes didn't work anymore. When I got back to my house I could push the full stroke of the cylinder piston and wasn't getting any pressure. When I pushed on the pedal, fluid would fill back up into my reservoir all the way to the end of the stroke, I have a glass reservoir so it was easy to see with the cap still tightened on.
I see, that is strange . Now it does sound like the master is acting out, it,s like the piston skirt ( o ring, or whatever the sealing shit is) leaks and the fluid goes backwards and shoots up to the feed holes. On another hand you have said you hadn,t seen any visible damage to the inside parts? ( perhaps visual inspection means nothing).

Well, keep us posted. you have gotten my attention.
__________________
VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2014, 07:56 AM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
I'll keep you posted. I'll try isolating the master cylinder and I'm going to pick up a rebuild kit as well, if that isn't it then I'm out $20, oh well. I can't get to this for a couple weeks, so I'll post my results afterwards. Should be a good learning experience. Thanks for the feedback and ideas.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2015, 08:32 AM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
It's been a little while since I updated this, but I've done a lot of work on it. I purchased a brand new cylinder of the same make/model. I completely rebuilt my lines and cleaned out my rear reservoir and brake caliper. After installing the new cylinder, I bled the brakes and everything worked fine. Over the next few weeks, I bled them again to ensure that I had gotten all of the air out of the lines. I had never taken the bike out, after about 6 weeks I decided to take the bike out and checked the brakes one last time. This time I had the exact same issue as I did with my previous cylinder; no pressure to the rear brake and all the fluid is being forced back into the reservoir.
I bench tested the old cylinder and had the following results: After plugging the outlet to the brake switch, I filled the cylinder with fluid. If I put my finger over the inlet port then fluid flows fine out the outlet fitting to the rear brake, but if I simply put my finger or the outlet port to the rear brake, fluid flows back up the inlet port. This is telling me that somehow fluid is flowing around the plunger inside the cylinder.

I have had this exact same issue occur on 2 brand new master cylinders with absolutely no riding miles on them. Has anybody else heard of this issue with these? I haven't found any bad reviews on these and they are replacement parts for stock items.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2015, 11:46 AM
magnum45pete's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: brighton, uk
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 1942 Harley 45 Magnum
Posts: 1,243
Not Ranked     
sounds like you have the inlet and outlet lines the wrong way round
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2015, 03:56 PM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
The inlet and outlet are connected properly, I have even verified it against parts schematics for the make/model of the master cylinder. The inlet is a 1/8" NPT and the outlet is a 3/8" flared fitting, I wouldn't be able to connect them up backwards if I wanted.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2015, 04:13 PM
STEINBVG's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ATLANTIC CITY, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010-14; MYSELF; 96",113",120",127"
Posts: 3,117
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boardtracker View Post
The inlet and outlet are connected properly, I have even verified it against parts schematics for the make/model of the master cylinder. The inlet is a 1/8" NPT and the outlet is a 3/8" flared fitting, I wouldn't be able to connect them up backwards if I wanted.
I,m only using cheap KH style master made in Asia on all my builds 5/8 for single caliper and 3/4 for 2-3 caliper setups. Never had problems with it. About 60 bucks

5 8 Bore Rear Master Cylinder Kelsey Hayes Type for Harley 79 83 42453 80A | eBay

I recently saw a 10 bucks cheaper version, but it doesn,t look completely stock, but for 50 bucks I would give it a shot...
KH Type Rear Master Cylinder 5 8" Billet for Harley '83 XLH Sportster US Stock | eBay
By the way, there,s only one- output hole....
__________________
VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber

Last edited by STEINBVG; 03-25-2015 at 04:26 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2015, 01:57 PM
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Meridian, ID
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2014 Boardtrack 93" Shovelhead
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
Was finally able to fix this. Looked around a lot for another cylinder, but couldn't find anything that had my bolt pattern and fit in the space that I had. I pulled the master cylinder and grabbed my micrometer; found out that the bore on the cylinder was perfect at 5/8" (0.625"), but the rubber piston cup sat naturally at 0.617", there wasn't enough surface contact on the inside piston to keep the cup expanded out to the needed 0.625". For this reason, I kept getting fluid to push by the rubber piston cup and could only get the cylinder to work if i pushed the pedal very quickly. Standard replacements wouldn't work as they were the same design, but after a lot of searching around online I found a different style that was made to replace this standard internal kit.

If you have a master cylinder that takes a replacement kit 42374-82A and are having the same issues, J&P cycles has a replacement kit (item# 241-018) that is a different setup. After installing this in my bike, the brakes work perfectly now. They were very easy to bleed and hold good pressure and I'm not getting fluid pushing back into my master cylinder.

I thought that the issue was only with mine, but I finally found some other reviews online of my product or similar models that had the same issues. Looks like somebody figured it out and redesigned the insides for these types of cylinders. Hopefully they start selling them with the new insides as the ones they currently come with are very unsafe.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2015, 04:19 PM
STEINBVG's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ATLANTIC CITY, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010-14; MYSELF; 96",113",120",127"
Posts: 3,117
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boardtracker View Post
Was finally able to fix this. Looked around a lot for another cylinder, but couldn't find anything that had my bolt pattern and fit in the space that I had. I pulled the master cylinder and grabbed my micrometer; found out that the bore on the cylinder was perfect at 5/8" (0.625"), but the rubber piston cup sat naturally at 0.617", there wasn't enough surface contact on the inside piston to keep the cup expanded out to the needed 0.625". For this reason, I kept getting fluid to push by the rubber piston cup and could only get the cylinder to work if i pushed the pedal very quickly. Standard replacements wouldn't work as they were the same design, but after a lot of searching around online I found a different style that was made to replace this standard internal kit.

If you have a master cylinder that takes a replacement kit 42374-82A and are having the same issues, J&P cycles has a replacement kit (item# 241-018) that is a different setup. After installing this in my bike, the brakes work perfectly now. They were very easy to bleed and hold good pressure and I'm not getting fluid pushing back into my master cylinder.

I thought that the issue was only with mine, but I finally found some other reviews online of my product or similar models that had the same issues. Looks like somebody figured it out and redesigned the insides for these types of cylinders. Hopefully they start selling them with the new insides as the ones they currently come with are very unsafe.
So my speculation in the post #5 about fluid flowing by the too small of a piston rubber skirt was accurrate
Cool , at least you have fixed it, correct?
__________________
VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:05 PM
Shovel52's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Shreveport, la
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2004 Ultima Chopper
Posts: 917
Not Ranked     
Whew! this one was a hair puller..Congrats. on going the extra mile and doing the work that the manufacturer should have done in the first place..saves us all a lot of stress..
__________________


2004 Ultima 127 Chopper
1975 Harley Davidson Shovel head Chopper
Shreveport Louisiana
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2018, 01:22 PM
Junior Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Virginia Beach, Va
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
I'm having the same issue on my 07 AIH Slammer, i tried looking up that part # that you posted on J&P's website and it does not exist. Does that part have a updated number or do you know the reference # associated with it? Thank you

#this is so frustrating.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2018, 01:24 PM
Junior Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Virginia Beach, Va
Posts: 6
Not Ranked     
I'm having the same issue on my 07 AIH Slammer, i tried looking up that part # that you posted on J&P's website and it does not exist. Does that part have a updated number or do you know the reference # associated with it? Thank you

#this is so frustrating.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bleed, brake, hawg halter

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:41 PM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0

CC Policy

The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubchopper.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners or moderators. clubchopper.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you or have been given the expressed written consent to post. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). For full policy, please click the "CC policy" link. Thank you for visiting the clubchopper.com
Links monetized by VigLink