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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2013, 08:59 PM
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S&S 113 Super G jetting.

My Bourget has a S&S 113 , 520 cam, 10.1/1 compression. Right off idle it seems to have a lean spot. I have worked on jap bikes for years and have no experience with S&S carbs. Tons with Keihin and Mikuni slide type carbs though. I have read through the S&S tuning manual but hopefully Ill get some advice before going through trial and error tuning to figure out what does what.

What is it doing is right off idle or riding down the highway at low throttle opening and low RPMs if I crack the throttle just a little the bike cuts out briefly and the catches up(seems lean to me). If I open her up a little more it seems to clear up and pull just fine. If this was a JAP carb I would increase the pilot jet a couple sizes and raise the needle.

When I turn the idle screw out a little more it helps but then it seems idle rich and does not rev as quick in neutral. It seems to be Rich with no load and lean under load.

So does anyone have any good baseline recommendations for this motor so I don't throw darts blindly trying to nail down the jetting.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman53 View Post
My Bourget has a S&S 113 , 520 cam, 10.1/1 compression. Right off idle it seems to have a lean spot. I have worked on jap bikes for years and have no experience with S&S carbs. Tons with Keihin and Mikuni slide type carbs though. I have read through the S&S tuning manual but hopefully Ill get some advice before going through trial and error tuning to figure out what does what.

What is it doing is right off idle or riding down the highway at low throttle opening and low RPMs if I crack the throttle just a little the bike cuts out briefly and the catches up(seems lean to me). If I open her up a little more it seems to clear up and pull just fine. If this was a JAP carb I would increase the pilot jet a couple sizes and raise the needle.

When I turn the idle screw out a little more it helps but then it seems idle rich and does not rev as quick in neutral. It seems to be Rich with no load and lean under load.

So does anyone have any good baseline recommendations for this motor so I don't throw darts blindly trying to nail down the jetting.
Both s&s and Ultima sites have basic jetting recommendations tables in their manuals.
WITH MY 113 S&S-I played around 31-32 on my intermediate jet and about 78-80 on main. ( G- carb)I have straight pipes. Make sure you turn off the ACC. Pump while trying the jets.
The intermediate had 2 indicators of correctness- the mixture screw position should end up being in 1.25- 1.75 turn out + smooth performance through the rpm up to 3000. Well I guess by spark plug color somewhat.
You may never get rid of the flat you describe. Bringing up the ACC. Pump afterwards might smooth the things up a bit.

The main is judged by riding and spark plug color.
A flat in transition area between the 2 jets might be adjusted somewhat with air bleed.

I will never torchure my bikes on dyno.
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Last edited by STEINBVG; 06-17-2013 at 05:20 AM..
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:48 PM
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Thanks for the reply! I retuned the idle mixture where its idling perfect and then turned the accel pump off and backed it out until it reved smooth and it seems to rev a lot better on the stand but its raining so I cant put it under load until it dries up. Hopefully it was just not enough accel pump. I did order a complete gasket set for this carb so it its still lean I am going to go up on the pilot jet.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:53 PM
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I already miss fuel injection! My other bike is a Kawasaki ZX10R talk about apples to oranges! This is my first HD style or custom bike. I've rode Jap bikes all my life. I just fell in love with this bike and for the price could not turn it down. Its growing on me though.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman53 View Post
I have read through the S&S tuning manual but hopefully Ill get some advice before going through trial and error tuning to figure out what does what.




So does anyone have any good baseline recommendations for this motor so I don't throw darts blindly trying to nail down the jetting.

The baseline stats in the S&S Manual are EXCELLENT, and that is where you want to start

The circuits must be tuned in sequence, starting with the idle, and working your way up, finishing with the A/C pump last. All of the upper circuits key off of the idle circuit, so you have to get that right FIRST

Keep in mind that in the garage, you can only effectively tune the idle circuit and the A/C pump (without a dyno, which I don't recommend)

Also, More isn't necessarily better on the A/C pump. Too much A/C pump will produce a a stumble similar to too little

Again, the S&S manual baseline stats are going to get you VERY close, and if you follow the steps, there is no mystery to a Super G

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Last edited by Merlin Hawaii; 06-18-2013 at 09:26 PM..
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:51 PM
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I just took her apart to see what jets were in her. I'm amazed how simple this carb is. Its reminds me of a 1930's Stromberg. It has a 28 intermediate jet and a 76main. Both were clean. The fuel screw was 1.5 turns out and the idle was around 1200 rpms. Seems to be in the ball park. There was some oil buildup in the low speed passages. I'm going to clean her good and see where we stand to make sure that was not the main problem. Then if its still to lean I'm thinking moving up to a 29.5 IJ and go from there.

This was a factory engine in the Bourget Were they jetted lean for EPA from the factory like most of the carbureted Hondas are? It does have the 520 EPA cam maybe explaining the smaller IJ?
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman53 View Post
I just took her apart to see what jets were in her. I'm amazed how simple this carb is. Its reminds me of a 1930's Stromberg. It has a 28 intermediate jet and a 76main. Both were clean. The fuel screw was 1.5 turns out and the idle was around 1200 rpms. Seems to be in the ball park. There was some oil buildup in the low speed passages. I'm going to clean her good and see where we stand to make sure that was not the main problem. Then if its still to lean I'm thinking moving up to a 29.5 IJ and go from there.

This was a factory engine in the Bourget Were they jetted lean for EPA from the factory like most of the carbureted Hondas are? It does have the 520 EPA cam maybe explaining the smaller IJ?
I have read somewhere that funky size 29.5 was designed specifically for 80" HD. I think it,s still works fine on 96". But perhaps it,s a bit small for 113".
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127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:28 PM
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Update, after cleaning the carb and setting it to stock settings its defiantly lean on the intermediate jet. I'm going to order a 31,32,33 and start with the 31. Good to know. It clears up for the most part when the motor is very hot. I'm going to check for intake leaks before I go any further. At least now I know everything is up to spec and the carb is clean and feeding fuel like it is meant to. Now to dial in the carb.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:31 PM
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I don't see how a factory bike would leave this lean but that's the way it came from the factory. Also we are at 233 feet above sea level that makes a difference also.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:03 AM
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I would say a 29.5 is def too lean for a 113. S&S's are stupid simple to tune. Forget plug color, it even says that in the S$&S manual. If it pulls good and clean it's good up top. I would bump up to a 31 intermediate and go from there. Warm up the bike by riding it, turn the screw out till it stumbles then turn it in till it stumbles and set it between the 2 extremes. Should be around 1.5 turns out give or take 1/4 turn either way. I would stick a 78 main in it and go from there. Good luck
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:05 AM
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Also what ignition you running? have you thought about a VOES switch? some aftermarket ignitions use a VOES to bump up timing in high vacuum situations like part throttle cruies and idle. This could really help if your engine combo just will not run right down low with the correct int jet.

Last edited by bigtwin100; 06-21-2013 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtwin100 View Post
i would say a 29.5 is def too lean for a 113. S&s's are stupid simple to tune. Forget plug color, it even says that in the s$&s manual. If it pulls good and clean it's good up top. I would bump up to a 31 intermediate and go from there. Warm up the bike by riding it, turn the screw out till it stumbles then turn it in till it stumbles and set it between the 2 extremes. Should be around 1.5 turns out give or take 1/4 turn either way. I would stick a 78 main in it and go from there. Good luck
i would still check spark plugs , how the pipes turn color and overall temp. Between 2 jets running subjectively similar- i would chose the richer one that paints the plugs darker.

I never tried to affect temperature by dropping down the spark plugs heat range- but it,s supposedly an option to consider.
Also i would make sure that the engine is not retarded and overheating from that.
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SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. CAN'T SEE SHIT.
113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech FL 2014/2019 bobber
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEINBVG View Post
i would still check spark plugs , how the pipes turn color and overall temp. Between 2 jets running subjectively similar- i would chose the richer one that paints the plugs darker.

I never tried to affect temperature by dropping down the spark plugs heat range- but it,s supposedly an option to consider.
Also i would make sure that the engine is not retarded and overheating from that.
Only prob with that is mot people don't do it right. They run it hard than ride it to a stop. Most people will not run it wide open then kill it on the highway and coast to the shoulder to check their plugs. I agree with you on checking the ign etc
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtwin100 View Post
Also what ignition you running? have you thought about a VOES switch? some aftermarket ignitions use a VOES to bump up timing in high vacuum situations like part throttle cruies and idle. This could really help if your engine combo just will not run right down low with the correct int jet.
I just pulled the nose cone and it has a crane cams HI-4 dual fire ignition. I was expecting an S&S ignition.

The spark advance is set in the middle (no numbers to go by).

The rev limiter is somewhere around 6,300.

There is a switch with race mode or OEM w\voes, it is set to VOES, There not a vacuum sensor on the bike though how does it know?

The other switch is kick start/electric start... It is set to kick start? is there any good reason to set it to kick start on an electric start bike. it does occasionally back fire through the carb when starting but never when running.
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Old 06-22-2013, 07:31 PM
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A VOES switch would be connected to the manifold vacuum port and then the 1 and only wire is grounded. If there is no VOES the wire coming off the module is just taped up ( I think it's the green wire but would have to check the crane instructions to verify).
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