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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2013, 12:25 PM
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I got a S and S Super E on my thousand CC Iron-head. I got it used after an engine rebuild. It ran fine before ethanol came out. It got to the point that it popped out of the carb too much and fowled the plugs.
First of all I found out there are different sized jets for different elevations. One can call S and S and find out what is right for their elevation or talk to some custom cycle shop in town.
The repair manual I got says Super E and G so since my carb has two jets yours probably does too. One is for low RPM and the other is for higher RPM. Haven't memorized them exactly.
You also have three adjustments. Idle RPM, Carb adjustment and accelerator pump adjustment.
The manual says one should adjust the idle from 800 to 1000 RPM. I use 1000 and make sure it is set before adjusting the carb.
Next the manual tell you to warm the engine up a bit. Then you turn the adjusting screw in (leaner) until the engine almost dies. Then turn it out (richer) until the idle goes bad. It should get set right in between the two spots. The manual says some thing like 1/4 to 1/2 turn out from the almost die lean.
It also says one must ride the bike for a while and really get it warmed up because that first adjustment is too rich for that point. It really helped me to ride for a half hour, pull off the road and play with adjusting it again.
The manual tell you how to adjust the accelerator pump so the engine revs up well.
I had to learn the right way to take care of the air filter. I got a high performance motorcycle air filter from drag specialties. That kind of filter gets oil on it. One can find K and N Recharger Filter Care Service Kit at an auto parts shop. That kit gets used to clean and then oil the filter.
How to Clean and Maintain Motorcycle Air Filters - BikeBandit.com
I found this to help me learn how to care for the air filter. You can hit S and S on line to find out more about that carb. Good luck.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 02:34 PM
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I ran it with the 31 low speed jet and the 78 high speed jet for a couple months and it seems to run pretty good with no surging. But I had to run a little more accel pump than I wanted to keep it from stumbling. The other the day it broke the primary belt after a 20min run on the highway at 80MPH and I had it towed home. I pulled the spark plugs to see what they looked like as they would be a good indication of what it was doing on the highway. And they were SNOW white. So the 31 is still lean. Also this was on a 97* day so I am sure it would be even leaner in cooler temps. I put a 32 in but have not had a chance to run it yet as a breather bolt broke and im waiting to get a new one in.

But she should be pretty close now.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman53 View Post
I ran it with the 31 low speed jet and the 78 high speed jet for a couple months and it seems to run pretty good with no surging. But I had to run a little more accel pump than I wanted to keep it from stumbling. The other the day it broke the primary belt after a 20min run on the highway at 80MPH and I had it towed home. I pulled the spark plugs to see what they looked like as they would be a good indication of what it was doing on the highway. And they were SNOW white. So the 31 is still lean. Also this was on a 97* day so I am sure it would be even leaner in cooler temps. I put a 32 in but have not had a chance to run it yet as a breather bolt broke and im waiting to get a new one in.

But she should be pretty close now.
At 80 m/ hr the rpm I think already would be in 3500+range, which means main jet kicked already in. Why do you think you need to change the intermediate ( low) and not main( high)?

If you were cruising part throttle 60 - 70 in 6th, I might think you are in the low jet.
But 80 is quite wide open, isn,t ?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 04:40 PM
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This thing is geared high, It is turning 60mph at 2000rpms( or so they claim), So its turning 2500ish at 75-80. Its defiantly still on the low jet, the throttle is barley cracked also at that speed. I need to figure out the final gearing and do the math one of these days(no tach ). Its a 5 speed FXR style trans and I don't hit fith until 65 mph most of the time or it just lugs the engine down.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 06:42 PM
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The main jet is supposed to get used when the engine reaches 3500 RPM. Since Ironheads run good at high RPMs I think the main jet gets used alot. One thing that helped mine run nicer was to stop purchasing gas at Allsup's. The gas from them cloggs up the petcock fuel filter and makes you switch to reserve quickly. Some gas from Love's has really beat that problem. It is nice and relaxing while the engine runs smoothly.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman53 View Post
My Bourget has a S&S 113 , 520 cam, 10.1/1 compression. Right off idle it seems to have a lean spot. I have worked on jap bikes for years and have no experience with S&S carbs. Tons with Keihin and Mikuni slide type carbs though. I have read through the S&S tuning manual but hopefully Ill get some advice before going through trial and error tuning to figure out what does what.

What is it doing is right off idle or riding down the highway at low throttle opening and low RPMs if I crack the throttle just a little the bike cuts out briefly and the catches up(seems lean to me). If I open her up a little more it seems to clear up and pull just fine. If this was a JAP carb I would increase the pilot jet a couple sizes and raise the needle.

When I turn the idle screw out a little more it helps but then it seems idle rich and does not rev as quick in neutral. It seems to be Rich with no load and lean under load.

So does anyone have any good baseline recommendations for this motor so I don't throw darts blindly trying to nail down the jetting.
I think you may be barking up the wrong tree. you said you had straight pipes? S&S specifically states you will get that crappy low rpm hesitation with drag pipes and the only fix is some sort of baffle. I have gone through this issue with the same setup and no amount of jetting will fix it. Drag Pipes Exhaust: Carb Jetting and Troubleshooting by S&S Cycle - YouTube
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 07:10 AM
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I got a S & S Super E on y thousand CC Ironhead. The carb has two jets. The intermediate and main jet. I got a manual for it. That made it easier to get the right jets. It tells that the intermediate jet is used until 3500 rpms. Then the main jet is used. It also tells how to test the main jet to see if it is too rich or lean or the right one. That test is to race the motorcycle up hill and see what the engine does. It tells the things that get done when the jets is too rich and the things done when it is too lean. You ought to got to
S&S Cycle: Performance Motorcycle Parts For Harley-...
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
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I think you may be barking up the wrong tree. you said you had straight pipes? S&S specifically states you will get that crappy low rpm hesitation with drag pipes and the only fix is some sort of baffle. I have gone through this issue with the same setup and no amount of jetting will fix it. Drag Pipes Exhaust: Carb Jetting and Troubleshooting by S&S Cycle - YouTube
I DON,T KNOW, I HAVE THIS BIKE WITH THE SHORT STRAIGHT PIPES AND THE SUPPER G JETTED 31+78, THE ENGINE-113 WITH 11:1 COMPRESSION AND IT RUNS PRETTY WELL[ JUST SLIGHT POPS ON DECELERATION.
PULLS LIKE A TRAIN IN ANY RPM
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 06:37 PM
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The manual covers exhaust pipes. It tells extra large pipes like cross overs don't work. it also tells one must have some back pressure. It also tells that muffled pipes like stock ones have more power. I had some pipes that looked just like straight pipes that had mufflers in them. They worked fine.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 07:11 PM
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She is running great with the 32 intermediate jet. Pulls much smoother and no off idle hesitation. I am going to do something with the pipes down the road but its running pretty good at the moment.

So just to recap for anyone else with the similar set,32int with 76main(may need 78) but will get you close with the 520 can and 10.7/1 comp. I think I got her as close as I am going to get for all around riding. I still want Fuel injection or a mikuni but maybe down the road.

Thanks for the help guys; I still would rather have a mikuni if anyone every wants to trade for a HSA45 let me know.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 07:53 PM
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PS. A side note on pipes, Back pressure is a myth you don't want any back pressure and on most sport bikes and tuned exhaust systems you actually create pulses of negative pressure to help pull the exhaust out the cylinders that is timed for certain rpm ranges. Its counter intuitive but baffles and packing can actually flow better than a straight pipe because the harmonics and exhaust scavenging effect.

With straight pipes you have what are called standing waves and reversion of the sound waves that travel back up the pipe and create positive pressure as in the wave is trying to push air back into the cylinder when the piston is trying to push it out. With most straight pipes you have this around 3000 rpms. This makes the motor less efficient and the mixture will go rich because of the increased restriction. Now a good carb you can tune the mixtures where they need to be but with a 2 circuit carb(S&S) you donít have the adjustability to tune it out. Now even tuned out you will be down on power but not as much as pig rich and a potato in the exhaust pipe.

The reason the myth of backpressure got started is when people would gut mufflers run straight pipes ect and did not understand the physics of what was going on. They would lose power over a baffled pipe. well intuition would tell you the pressure is lower and the baffles create some back pressure so an engine needs backpressure to run. WRONG the straight pipe is not tuned and you are getting restriction as mentioned above. SO you make MORE backpressure at cretin rpms then baffled pipes and that is where the power loss comes from. Now at high rpms the effect become normally goes away and make a just as much power but low end and mid range takes a hit normally.

What happens on a tuned system? Well there are normally collectors where 2 pipes meet. An average 4 cylinder sport bike has a 4 into 2 in to 1 which means the four individual pipes coming from the head normally merge into 2 and then later on the 2 merge into a single pipe. These mergers are called collectors. In fluid dynamics you have the Venturi effect. What this does is, as the air is moving from one pipe through the collector it creates a vacuum in the other pipe connected to it. so when the exhaust vales open on the next cylinder it has a vacuum that pulls the exhaust out, Then that pulse creates a vacuum pulse to the next cylinder and so on. The length of the pipes to the collectors controls the RPM range where this effect is the strongest. This is why a short header makes more high rpm power and a longer header makes more low end. The longer the primary pipes to the first collector the lower the Rpm range where this effect is the strongest. Now a straight thorough muffler normally makes the most power. We used fiber glassed packed mufflers, the fiberglass also helps absorb unwanted waves leaving the pipe also. You can also used a chambered muffler tuned to different resonant frequencies to help out in certain trouble rpms but normally not the best overall power( Google Helmholtz resonator).

Now all this goes out the window with a single crank pin Harley. You can use one pulse to tune the other cylinder but after that the waves are long gone before the next firing event.

But the harmonics and waves traveling up and down the pipe will kill the flow so you need something to break them up (since we can't use them for any good like a sport bike). I guess you could use the back cylinder to help the front cylinder. So with the uneven firing of the HD it makes this harder to do and with less effect. And when you have separate pipes all that is lost anyway. But you can still tune the pipes to flow good and there are some tricks here and there to make them more efficient.

Clear as mud? The moral of the story here is an open straight pipe can have less flow and more backpressure than one with a baffles or collectors in certain cases.
When I get some time I am going to run some computer simulations on my 113 S&S and I might build some better pipes for it. But I donít have time at the moment and its running pretty dang good now just to loud for my taste.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEINBVG View Post
I DON,T KNOW, I HAVE THIS BIKE WITH THE SHORT STRAIGHT PIPES AND THE SUPPER G JETTED 31+78, THE ENGINE-113 WITH 11:1 COMPRESSION AND IT RUNS PRETTY WELL[ JUST SLIGHT POPS ON DECELERATION.
PULLS LIKE A TRAIN IN ANY RPM
perhaps the shorter pipe helps cut down on the reversion waves? what cam are you running? I"m running the .600 I may try some shortys like those
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2013, 03:36 PM
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perhaps the shorter pipe helps cut down on the reversion waves? what cam are you running? I"m running the .600 I may try some shortys like those
You might be right, it does not seem to have a dip on my Bourget. Its just a little loud for my taste.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2013, 03:49 PM
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As far as back pressure goes the elevation makes a difference.

The manual itself tells you Higher elevation makes engine run richer, meaning that smaller jets may be required to correct overly rich condition.
It also tells you A simple readjustment of idle mixture screw will often compensate for changes of elevation of several thousand feet. S&S test riders have ridden through changes upwards of 7000 feet without changing jets. In other cases and depending upon accuracy of initial jetting, a change in intermediate and/or main jet may be required.
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Last edited by nucklheads; 09-14-2013 at 06:06 PM.. Reason: misspelled words
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:25 PM
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Just an update on the bike, It is 10.7/1 compression not 10.1 as i though. I ended up going with a S&S 600 cam and S&S roller rockers. After that it was starving for fuel on the top end. I have put all new intake gaskets and went through everything to make sure there were no other problems. The total advance on the ignition is at 28* at the moment. I also went to a cooler plug a NGK BPR6ES v the 5 hear range and to be honest it could probably stand a 7 plug and not fowl as the plugs are still very white.

When i put the new cam in it would not rev past 4500-5000 rpms and would just break up being way to lean. I am now running 32/82 jetting and it is still starving for fuel on the top end but was getting on the rich side in the mid range. Just for a test I put some thumb screws in the pipes and it absolutely picked up some mid range power and is about dead on in the mid but still lean up top. It will rev to 6000 and hit the limiter but you can feel the power start falling off and on a cold day it will breakup just before rev limiter. I am going to try an 84 main and see if it is better, I think i will end up with a 86 main and drilling out the air bleed to lean out the mid range.

My question is doesn't a 84-86 main jet seem like a LOT of main jet for a 113?

It is still lean at part throttle but with a 33 low speed jet it wants to flood starting. But it runs smooth for the most part.
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