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-   -   SAT Motorsports rigid attempt. (http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/one-off-custom-builds/123048-sat-motorsports-rigid-attempt.html)

JamesS 08-03-2020 09:09 PM

SAT Motorsports rigid attempt.
 
I recently came across a bike that was partially 'assembled'.
The guy got a buncha parts off the internet and tried to build a chopper around an SAT frame.
He seemed to have a little game as the handlebars have been fabbed and will most likely be used. However he had little knowledge of the wide tire bike genre.
This was evident in the rear 360mm tire/wheel bing offset to the left as he tried to line up the final drive sprockets.
He then passed away , his family having no idea what to do with the bike.
So I go it for a good price , tons of parts , an extra engine and a buttload of engineering problems.
https://i.ibb.co/h70bRwx/IMG-6617.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/kJdvJQ0/IMG-6616.jpg
Looks pretty good! However these parts are very loosely assembled.

I began by disassembling the bike and checking the frame. There were some anomolys in the frame , none to tough to over come. Buddy had installed a .25" spacer between the engine and inner primary plate , this was going the wrong way.
I have built a lot of custom choppers so procedure is familiar to me. Centering the rear wheel , I saw that the sprockets were around .600" out of line. Checking parts and manufacturer sites I came to the conclusion that the stock trans mounting plate was not going to work. An offset plate , in conjunction with a PBI 1.31" offset sprocket will get things lined up.
https://i.ibb.co/0JNNwd8/IMG-7237.jpg

I have a little experience with the wide tire stuff , but not as far as suppliers go.
Is there a trans mounting plate that moves the trans to the right?

Shovel52 08-04-2020 08:32 PM

Obtaining a plate would be no problem, but what would that do to the other side of the bike when you move the trans? They have double link chains you can research. Will adding another chain width clear all that? then experiment with some shims?
kind of hard to tell since your pic. is on an angle......muck I didn't read your post, I guess if you used an off set plate , you could offset the primary with it..

STEINBVG 08-05-2020 06:05 AM

Rsd
 
RSD TYPICALLY USED STARTING AT 250 TIRE.

IT WAS DEVELOPED SO THE ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION HAVE NO OFFSETS AND ARE IN STOCK POSITION RELATING TO THE FRAME AND EACH OTHER WHEN YOU GO WITH VERY FAT TIRES. SO THE BIKE BALANCES CORRECTLY.
I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S AN OFFSET TRANSMISSION PLATE TO THE RIGHT, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE IT CAN BE DESIGNED, OR EVEN PERHAPS RE DRILLED FROM A STOCK ZERO OFFSET PLATE. BUT WHY?

THE PRIMARY MUST CONNECT TRANY AND MOTOR W/O ANY ADDITIONAL SPACERS, HOWEVER, DEPENDING ON A MANUFACTURER OF OPEN BELT, YOU MAY NEED TO USE A BIT OFFSET MOTOR PULLEY TO COMPENSATE FOR THE THICKNESS AND MACHINING OF THE MOTOR PLATE- TO ALIGN IT WITH THE CLUTCH BASKET.[ I BELIEVE I USED .5 OFFSET WITH RIVERA BRUTO IV, BECAUSE OF THEIR THICKNESS[ MOTOR PLATE WAS ZERO OFFSET]

NOW.
THE REST OF ALIGNMENT IS BETWEEN THE TRANSMISSION SPROCKET AND THE WHEEL SPROCKET.
TYPICALLY THE RSD TRANY SPROCKET RUNS UP TO 1.5" OFFSET, WITH BIG OFFSETS IN INCREMENTS OF .25[ MOTORWAY ENGINEERING, VULCAN]. MIND YOU THE LSD BIGGEST OFFSET SPROCKET IS 0.9, TO FIT INSIDE OF THE CAVITY AND SOME FIT BETTER THAN OTHERS.

THE REAR SPROCKET ON THE WHEEL CAN BE SPACED AND SHIMMED IN SMALLER INCREMENTS- SO BETWEEN THE 2 YOU CAN ACHIEVE A PERFECTION[ INDEED THE WHEEL IS CENTERED AND YOU ALLOW THE CHAIN CLEARANCE FROM THE TIRE].

HOWEVER, THE THICK SPROCKET ON TRANY WILL NOT FIT WITH THE CLUTCH ACTUATOR- THAT ONE WOULD NEED TO BE SPACED OUT. IT HAS 3 MOUNTING BOLTS, 3 INDIVIDUAL 5/16 ID , I BELIEVE, SPACERS OF APPROPRIATE LENGTH FOR EACH BOLT WILL DO BECAUSE OF THE AXIS OF THE JOB IT DOES. NO NEE FOR FANCY MACHINING.

IF THE RSD FINAL CHAIN IS INSIDE THE FRAME- YOU SHOULD BARELY NEED ANY TRANY SPROCKET OFFSET, ESPECIALLY WITH A 'PUNY' 250 TIRE.

HOWEVER, IF THE CHAIN RUNS OUTSIDE THE FRAME, LIKE IN MY CASE- I HAD TO USE 1.5 " OFFSET SPROCKET. AND THE WHEEL HUB IS VERY EXTENDED FOR THE REAR SPROCKET.
http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/pi...ictureid=13697
http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/pi...ictureid=13937 http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/pi...ictureid=13936 http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/pi...ictureid=12943

JamesS 08-05-2020 01:22 PM

Thanks for the responses guys.
Please read the posts as to alleviate misunderstanding.
Thanks for the wide tire history recap too, I lived that era in the chopper shops I worked in. My inexperience due to the fact that the proprietors of said shops wouldnt allow the WT stupidity in their shops. I , we , all watched the drivetrain get pushed to the left into very dangerous territory , first offsetting the primary and tranny and then the real stupidity of offsetting the engine ,, primary and trans to the left. Some guys wiped out , experienced riders were having trouble with these silly bikes. All to put a wide tire onto a chassis that really couldnt use it.
I ride a 2006 VRSCR Street Rod , the fastest , most powerful Harley ever built. It has a 180mm tire and I use almost all of it as an aggressive rider .Really aggressive.
Sport bikes only have 200mm tires cuz' thats all you need.
I would not have bought this chopper if it was left offset silliness.

Back to the problems at hand.
The pic above shows the 1/2" rod used to lie up the sprockets.
Inside of the rod - outside of the pictured sprocket is approx: .600"
Sprocket is 1.06" off set.
As stated above for some reason the guy put a .25" spacer between the inner primary plate and the engine. Removing this would be .600" minus .25" is: .350" (remaining required offset)
Change the pictured sprocket for PDI's 1.310" offset sprocket would be a gain of .25".
So with the sprocket and removal of the spacer tyhat would give me .5" coming back to the right. I think between .5" - .6 " a diff of .100" can be worked out with spacers or removal of the face of the hub.

I will also check the suppliers mentioned above for an even more offset sprocket if available. ++ I checked. Vulcan has a 1.5" offset sprocket that will help.

The hydraulic clutch can be spaced accordingly but I would cut a one piece spacer if possible.

The math indicates that the lineup of the final drive chain is possible.

STEINBVG 08-05-2020 05:40 PM

Oh there,s no misunderstanding.

I,m really glad you have all figured out.

Keep us posted , preferably with the pictures of your inevitable progress.

Good luck.

JamesS 08-06-2020 10:50 AM

Thanks.
As I said the assy done was not of a finished caliber.
There is no 5th mount for the trans , pretty crucial for this type of drive train.
I'm guessing this was left off until tire size was sorted , regarding the final placement of the trans. The frame has been prematurely painted and there are a number of other mounts to be fabbed and attached , I was hoping to save the paint but there are too many missing mounts.
Where the large bolt in the center of the pic there should be a mount to the frame.:
https://i.ibb.co/PhwxGKt/IMG-7238.jpg

JamesS 08-14-2020 10:40 PM

Oil tankantics;
Prepping the tank for the bike, a ball peen was used to gain clearance where the tranny plate bolts in , threads chased aand plugs installed , feed and return bungs were id'd and a punch used to mark. And lastly visual inspection revealed a crack.
https://i.ibb.co/89jcWkT/IMG-7252.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sjC0b4g/IMG-7253.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LpCtV79/IMG-7257.jpg

I learned to always check the seal of gas tanks and oil tanks. I'll grind this a little and hit it with the propane torch again, this allows trapped oil to escape and not interfere with the weld.

JamesS 08-23-2020 12:10 PM

The crack and the large amount of missing mounts means some fabrication and the implementation of this piece of equipment:
https://i.ibb.co/D8GsXjF/IMG-7294.jpg

axeychrome 08-26-2020 06:52 AM

kinda confused by all the spacing stuff. a spacer between the engine and primary was for a lSD fat tire setup where you'd use an offset tran place. As mentioned above, RSD left everything in position.

Some frames had an offset engine mount for LSD fat tires, but a RSD should be dead center.

always easier to start brand new vs. undoing someone else's but you're on the right track. you got this!

JamesS 08-26-2020 09:18 AM

Thanks
I've ordered the 1.5" offset sprocket , when that shows up I'll address the final placement of the trans and engine etc.
I've also made a list of mounts for the required equipment , up to 11 so far. Including the removal of a few that wont be used. This phase of the work is mostly discovery of what is supplied and what is needed. The previous owner had ordered a lot of stuff , double of some items , and the new chrome rec/reg box is for a different engine , so finding a few parts problems to solve.

axeychrome 08-26-2020 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesS (Post 1287603)
Thanks
I've ordered the 1.5" offset sprocket , when that shows up I'll address the final placement of the trans and engine etc.
I've also made a list of mounts for the required equipment , up to 11 so far. Including the removal of a few that wont be used. This phase of the work is mostly discovery of what is supplied and what is needed. The previous owner had ordered a lot of stuff , double of some items , and the new chrome rec/reg box is for a different engine , so finding a few parts problems to solve.

wise of you to check everything. if there was a primary spacer on a RSD bike, you can't trust the setup.

also seems like i ended up cutting off the 5th odd bolt on the bottom of the tran sometimes when i'd build. the plates didn't have a hole for it, maybe it was there for a brake light switch or something to mount.

JamesS 08-28-2020 12:58 PM

Thanks
Rule number one in every custom bike shop: Check Everything!

5th trans mount is without question required .

1.5" sprocket aived and was immediatly placed on the trans out put shaft:
https://i.ibb.co/7YxqNH7/IMG-7297.jpg

Yup , that there is yer deep dish sprocket:
https://i.ibb.co/TLCKvv3/IMG-7300.jpg

Chain run is now sorted and sprockets lined up.

axeychrome 08-28-2020 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesS (Post 1287608)
Thanks
Rule number one in every custom bike shop: Check Everything!

5th trans mount is without question required .

1.5" sprocket aived and was immediatly placed on the trans out put shaft:

Yup , that there is yer deep dish sprocket:

good to see the foundation lining up! i'd never seen a tran sprocket that deep. Seemed like i used to have spacers behind it? long as it's straight!

JamesS 09-04-2020 10:09 PM

Mount work begins with cardboard templates cut to diff shapes. I liked the final shape of the chain guard mount:
https://i.ibb.co/nbbhZBq/IMG-7310.jpg
And the rear turn sigs and tail/licence mount:
https://i.ibb.co/S5Ld6N8/IMG-7305.jpg
I'll stretch out the t/l mount a little more...

axeychrome 09-05-2020 06:31 AM

cardstock is so invaluable for shaping templates for the metal. on more complex shapes with multiple radii, i sometimes would masking tape between surfaces every which direction, razor the perimeter, and use that for a template too.

JamesS 09-06-2020 01:14 AM

Thanks.
I found battery dimensions and made a box.
A cardboard box.
For visualizing:
https://i.ibb.co/PmCLS9B/IMG-7318.jpg

axeychrome 09-06-2020 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesS (Post 1287643)
Thanks.
I found battery dimensions and made a box.
A cardboard box.
For visualizing:
https://i.ibb.co/PmCLS9B/IMG-7318.jpg

something to consider, electrical stuff gets hot, hot stuff fails. might consider just making a metal band to strap it in place vs. a fully enclosed box. you'll get more ventilation and keep it cooler.

JamesS 09-06-2020 03:50 PM

Thanks
As stated the box was for visualizing and it became apparant that the area was too small to accomodate the battery. I have dimensions for Harley electric start battery's. Easily obtained and replaced.
All of this mess will be gone , the silly suicide scenario shifter mount , and the plate and lower fender mount. The fender is gonna be cut off, there is a chain cut that goes 2" into the tire area anyway that can be cut right off and the battery box can block most of the road grime. I need this area clear to get the battery down onto the frame rail , where a proper mount will be installed:
https://i.ibb.co/dp0KFNb/IMG-7319.jpg

Ya so I went on to removal , first the "brake stay" mount. I didnt take a pic as it came off and the "weld" cleaned off quickly.
The big solid 1" bar that was to be used for a shift handle wsa next. It was as scary as the stay ,so I took a pic:
https://i.ibb.co/XCH19q7/IMG-7326.jpg
The blued part is the 1" bar, you can easily see there was little penetration of the weld into the bar. The stay was the same way so off it all came , fender mounts (off center any way):
https://i.ibb.co/6b65Kf0/IMG-7329.jpg
I managed to sand it smooth without too much parent metal removal.There are some other tabs attached by the previous "welder" including the kickstand mount , which I'll grind out and run some hot mig wire into it. Good to find this out now, rather than have parts falling off the bike as it goes down the road.

axeychrome 09-07-2020 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesS (Post 1287649)
Thanks
As stated the box was for visualizing and it became apparant that the area was too small to accomodate the battery. I have dimensions for Harley electric start battery's. Easily obtained and replaced.
All of this mess will be gone , the silly suicide scenario shifter mount , and the plate and lower fender mount. The fender is gonna be cut off, there is a chain cut that goes 2" into the tire area anyway that can be cut right off and the battery box can block most of the road grime. I need this area clear to get the battery down onto the frame rail , where a proper mount will be installed:

Ya so I went on to removal , first the "brake stay" mount. I didnt take a pic as it came off and the "weld" cleaned off quickly.
The big solid 1" bar that was to be used for a shift handle wsa next. It was as scary as the stay ,so I took a pic:

The blued part is the 1" bar, you can easily see there was little penetration of the weld into the bar. The stay was the same way so off it all came , fender mounts (off center any way):

I managed to sand it smooth without too much parent metal removal.There are some other tabs attached by the previous "welder" including the kickstand mount , which I'll grind out and run some hot mig wire into it. Good to find this out now, rather than have parts falling off the bike as it goes down the road.

absolutely. you have the luxury of seeing the metal for what it is and can cut/reinforce where necessary before you have it painted, powdered, or chromed.

JamesS 09-07-2020 03:59 PM

Well ; CUE THE MIDGET:
"That aint gonna werk"!

A stock sized battery will not fit into the space. I cut my cardboard box down until it fit without too much size loss. Then spent a few hours researching battery's , then went on a m/c parts suppliers page and found a number of smaller battery's that ill fit in the box size. With 3 battery's that are easily supplied and with enough power to crank the starter , I'll go ahead and get a box fabbed up, one with a side opening and easy access to the terminals:
https://i.ibb.co/GCDct6D/IMG-7347.jpg

axeychrome 09-08-2020 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesS (Post 1287652)
Well ; CUE THE MIDGET:
"That aint gonna werk"!

A stock sized battery will not fit into the space. I cut my cardboard box down until it fit without too much size loss. Then spent a few hours researching battery's , then went on a m/c parts suppliers page and found a number of smaller battery's that ill fit in the box size. With 3 battery's that are easily supplied and with enough power to crank the starter , I'll go ahead and get a box fabbed up, one with a side opening and easy access to the terminals:

the frame i had on the Gripper bike I have would only allow for a small, and what i considered undersized battery. it had a tray in the swingarm in front of the rear tire. i ended up modifying the tray to allow the battery to lay on it's side with terminals facing forward, a piece of steel strap on top, then two pieces of 1/4" all thread between the top strap and the tray. that allowed me to keep the battery back there while allowing a decent battery that wouldn't have me crossing fingers every time i tried to start it. i ended up with a braille glassmat battery that has been really good. i keep it on a battery tender junior which seems to help extend the life well too.

JamesS 09-09-2020 09:33 PM

Thanks.
Battery box begins:
https://i.ibb.co/0CHP33X/IMG-7349.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/v4nvDp2/IMG-7348.jpg

STEINBVG 09-10-2020 08:41 AM

I used a small lithium battery by Scorpion having no room for regular.

https://www.batterystuff.com/batteri...PointTechSpecs

pretty powerful for it's size.


Dimensions (LxWxH): 6 7⁄8 x 3 7⁄16 x 5 1⁄8 in

JamesS 09-10-2020 01:43 PM

Noted .
Thanks.

JamesS 09-15-2020 04:15 PM

Battery box progression:
https://i.ibb.co/Ld6smMr/IMG-7352.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DRcXMsv/IMG-7355.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/R9c101v/IMG-7371.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Yh0y17F/IMG-7366.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/dJ7XhN5/IMG-7364.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LxC11vR/IMG-7372.jpg
Lots of thought went into it.
Ends drop in and bolt at the top for removal.
Rubber pipe to insulate wires entering the box.
Bottom mount to the 3/16" flat bar which will be welded to the frame.
1/8 & 1/4 " Komatex close cell material will be used for the interior bottom and sides.
3 batteries in the J&P catalogue will fit , a hold down will be made when the chosen battery arrives.

axeychrome 09-20-2020 09:25 AM

good move using perf'd mat'l so it can stay cooler

JamesS 09-22-2020 03:47 PM

Thanks.
The perforated metal was left over from signwork.
Checking and double checking as I go , problems get solved and new ones arise. The oil tank was never mounted properly. I fabbed a 4th mount and clearanced the tranny mount ;
https://i.ibb.co/jTNKsBw/IMG-7381.jpg
Got the tank in place and then found out why there is no 5th tranny mount;
https://i.ibb.co/k5N2rYD/IMG-7387.jpg
The crap-ass tank has a crack already so sectioning out a piece for the mount isnt adding a lot of work.

JamesS 09-22-2020 07:59 PM

More sorting of the oil tank , so much in the way I just started grinding off the obstructions, mostly the rear trans mount. Now the tank goes in smooth and bolts up nicely. The final obstruction was the 5th trans mount bolt. Here is the tank with the section removed to clear the bolt and mount;
https://i.ibb.co/WKCND4G/IMG-7388.jpg
I took out the existing trough and will replace with a slanted piece ,alleviating some of the trickier tig welding to come.

JamesS 09-26-2020 06:16 PM

Mounting brackets and the hole in the tank:
https://i.ibb.co/YhjGvQF/IMG-7394.jpg

There are a tail/licence , 2 x rear turn signal , 4th oil tank , 5th trans , chain guard mouints and 2 'runners' to go on the underside of the frame , as the oil tank is below the frame rails and the drain plug is dangerously the lowest part of the bike. These runners will straddle the tank.

JamesS 09-29-2020 09:54 AM

A 2" x 2" x 6" section of 1/4" angle is cut and formed into a rear fender bracket:
https://i.ibb.co/wKXmc8q/2020-09-29-08-26-40.jpg
Welded up and ready to go on the frame:
https://i.ibb.co/0QC82LZ/2020-09-29-09-30-17.jpg

JamesS 10-01-2020 01:06 PM

Two more crucial mounts fabbed and fitted.
First the rear brake stop, fairly improtant , fabbed with a stock hanger so any custom brake for that year will fit:
https://i.ibb.co/9ZvctM0/IMG-7406.jpg
And I have decided to run some s/s struts up to the rear of the fender , rather than add 15 lbs of steel to make it solid.
So here is a mount to match the tail/licence mount on the other side:
https://i.ibb.co/g9pJ0YW/IMG-7409.jpg
Thanks for lookin' , feel free to comment.

JamesS 10-02-2020 05:56 PM

Mounts getting tacked in, fender and 5th trans :
https://i.ibb.co/q02HYPV/IMG-7413.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ZfW0JPT/IMG-7414.jpg

axeychrome 10-03-2020 06:23 AM

fender bracket looks good. wider spacing on bolt holes = stability. not as important if no passenger, but wider best.

JamesS 10-04-2020 07:32 PM

Thanks.
Tryna get the rear wheel and tranny mounts out of the way I tacked in the chain gaurd mount:
https://i.ibb.co/GcTdbMH/IMG-7421.jpg
Made out of 3/16" angle , its a little heavy for a guard, but could also double for a pipemount later on.
And gladly getting the polished rear wheel & painted fender out of the way , I blasted i n the missing 4th oil tank mount:
https://i.ibb.co/BtST1MX/IMG-7429.jpg

Should be able to go crazy with the mig tomorrow then transition to the tig machine for the final welds.

axeychrome 10-05-2020 11:21 AM

choppers vibrate. heavy metal is good.

JamesS 10-08-2020 09:45 PM

Thanks.
With such a large chassis dainty little artsy mounts will only sissify the chopper!
I like as much as possible sorted before going to final finish , electrical as well. I must have wired 50 choppers in my time so layout progress' naturally.One thing I like is a plate to mount equipment. Here is one for under the tank , holding the TSC , 2 breakers and a terminal board I added at the last minute hence the short plate. The plate can be welded to the frame or rivited , 10-32 screws mount the parts:
https://i.ibb.co/3dP5R21/IMG-7449.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/7R2BSN6/IMG-7450.jpg
The other 2 parts are ground lugs one under the tank , one under the seat.

axeychrome 10-09-2020 06:20 AM

i always got paranoid about the tank hitting the wires/lugs, so i put components parallel to the spine spaced out or even in the cavity above the motor mount. will that ignition module fit inside the tank tunnel? guess it's not really much wider than the spine. looks like you know what you're doing!

JamesS 10-10-2020 01:28 PM

Thanks.
At that point the tank had been on/off over a dozen times as I laid out the electrical parts. There would be little point in the ignition going under the tank as it has adjustments you would want to access.
Layout work continues with a cardboard template first:
https://i.ibb.co/vjW16mc/IMG-7453.jpg
Dimensions of components were taken and recorded as layout continues , this enclosure is of polished s/s sheet a friend gave me:
https://i.ibb.co/M7mvTPK/IMG-7455.jpg
The enclosure fits snug on the top motor mount 'triangle' and is secured by the top m/m bolt. The enclosure will hold the ignition switch and the oil idiot light:
https://i.ibb.co/XZn4M9F/IMG-7457.jpg
Kept going on it:
https://i.ibb.co/Xy4kgVJ/IMG-7462.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/m5Ptcyb/IMG-7465.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/r3yP7q0/IMG-7469.jpg

axeychrome 10-12-2020 11:20 AM

never seen switch mounted there. should look clean. will that be comfortable to reach around the tank to that? i used to mount my switch on the coil cover on the left hanging from the motor mount.

JamesS 10-19-2020 05:36 PM

Thanks
Plenty of room , check the very first pic on this thread.
Rolling on with the enclosure I found the thickness was a little too thin. Envisioning the wood grain dashwork from English cars ,and having numerous burls and exotic woods for my sign and woodwork , I selected a piece of ironwood burl. Made some programs and cnc routed my own little dash, spacing the key switch and oil pressure light out enough to be comfortable:
https://i.ibb.co/vxf4h9s/IMG-7479.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/M1Kb5KJ/IMG-7481.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/MGGZqVq/IMG-7490.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fvwjc7r/IMG-7491.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/2NPY8mF/IMG-7494.jpg


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