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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2014, 01:39 AM
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Raked cups

Hey guys, anyone used raked cups in an ultima frame? Not got the frame in hand yet so can't look at the setup, as previously mentioned the frame is a 250 rigid 85-101, price/availability of parts a stumbling block just now, shipping can be high but could get a set of 41mm sliders(4 over) then a set of trees(0) to the door all taxes paid for a great price, would then to use if possible the raked cups to give me just over 4 inches trail, could just wait until a deal comes up but have some funds burning away and as you know someone else will want the wonga! Did want to go inverted but the ball milled 41mm should look ok, So need to know if that plan is feasible? John (scooters) if you are reading this I do want to use you for some parts but the shipping/import is a block just now appreciate any feedback. Dave
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2014, 06:50 AM
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I don't like raked cups.Why not raked trees?
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:22 AM
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If you're frame has a 38* rake I would go with the 5* trees or at least 3* forget about the raked cups
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovel tchopper View Post
if you're frame has a 38* rake i would go with the 5* trees or at least 3* forget about the raked cups
it looks like he has a good deal on zero trees.

38 degree is not impressive rake, some people are not even bothering with raked trees [or cups- which feels like half way rig to me].
You might have wide enough bars and the flopping factor may not be even an issue for you. If it is[ with the normal cups]- than you can look into improving the geometry.

My Hannibal[AVATAR] has 40 degree[ stock size fork though, because the bike is low] and zero trees. I have wide bars and have no problems turning it around. I bet the trail on it is 5+.
Hell, harley rocker has i think about 6"trail[ it does feel fork heavy though] AND THATSA THE FACTORY BUILD!!!???

so, numbers are not always written in stone, just a good start[ideal]
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113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:26 AM
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Get the frame in hand first, then worry about frontend and trail,...patience grasshoppa
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
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Get the frame in hand first, then worry about frontend and trail,...patience grasshoppa
.......amen!
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain america View Post
.......amen!
i's interesting like some unexperienced builders announce at this site:' i have collected the parts, or bought at a deal a bunch of parts etc... And now i'm ready to build' without realising[ not able yet to foresee or invision the end project] that some parts will be wrong , tasteless or unnecessary.

Unless a geommetrically sound and reputable rolling chassis came together, bolt on, i would mock up in stages everything, definitely starting with a good desirable frame which immediately gives the layout and stance of the bike, gradually buying parts as the construction progresses. -desired wheels, desired ground clearance , correctly estimated/mocked up tree rake [or springer] , followed by correct length fork legs.
This prevented me from expensive mistakes.

All the other little shit will be invisioned much better on a complete rolling chassis.


Just a thought
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SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:36 AM
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Re cups

Thanks guys, some good advice there, best practice is as stated to get frame, mock up etc, frame is 34, so not too radical, only reason I am chomping st the bit is the funds are sat here but the reasonable prices are over the pond, The raked trees are probably a no go judging from the comments, that's fine, I will hang fire to save making a bad judgement, appreciate the feedback, thanks. Dave
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:52 PM
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I would go with raked trees 3 or 5 deg depending on how the geometry worked out. Try out one of the online rake and trail calculators and see what numbers you get. I have two sets of neck cups a 0 and a 3 deg cup. I will only have the 3 deg cup (installed backwards giving me -3 deg) to get through ADR inspections after that I'll put the 0 deg cups back in.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpert View Post
I would go with raked trees 3 or 5 deg depending on how the geometry worked out. Try out one of the online rake and trail calculators and see what numbers you get. I have two sets of neck cups a 0 and a 3 deg cup. I will only have the 3 deg cup (installed backwards giving me -3 deg) to get through ADR inspections after that I'll put the 0 deg cups back in.
You have some restrictions on the rake in Australia?
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber
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Old 05-31-2014, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEINBVG View Post
You have some restrictions on the rake in Australia?
Not the rake as such, we have a distance to the front axle as measured from the centre of the neck of 550mm. I'll be using the 3 deg cups to pull the axle in for the inspector to measure, that's because I'm using a 6" over Hard Body springer and the springer rockers push out the axle just a bit to much.

As far as our federal government is concerned they don't care what the geometry of the bike is (so negative trail is fine! Dangerous trail is OK) as long as that front axle is not over 550mm (21.65") from the centre of the neck. Dumb I know........
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpert View Post
Not the rake as such, we have a distance to the front axle as measured from the centre of the neck of 550mm. I'll be using the 3 deg cups to pull the axle in for the inspector to measure, that's because I'm using a 6" over Hard Body springer and the springer rockers push out the axle just a bit to much.

As far as our federal government is concerned they don't care what the geometry of the bike is (so negative trail is fine! Dangerous trail is OK) as long as that front axle is not over 550mm (21.65") from the centre of the neck. Dumb I know........
I recall reading, that Tolle in Sweden proved long time ago the drivability of his front ends geometry passing multiple tests including driving at low speed on a chopper with a 30" over fork. That,s how, I believe, the trail numbers became of importance.

Interesting, swedes had huge neck rakes, totaling 60 degrees in combined rake.

But sometime in 90s they restricted the neck rake to no more than 45 degrees...go figure. Knowing Scandinavians have some of the best registry in the world( data used in retrospective medical studies all the time) - could it be that their analysis of accidents' statistics lead to that decision ? Or it was totally subjective, impressionistic 'wisdom' of ignorant idiots bureaucrats ?
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VITALY.
SORRY FOR THE UPPER CASE. I AIN'T YELLING. I JUST MAKE TOO MANY TYPOS IN THE LOWER.

113"s&s, Walz softail 2000/2012 prostreet
96"s&s, Daytec dyna/ softail hybrid, 1998/2010 chopper
127"Ultima, Chassis Design rigid 2013 bobber
120"Ultima, Kraft Tech rigid 2014 bobber
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2014, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEINBVG View Post
I recall reading, that Tolle in Sweden proved long time ago the drivability of his front ends geometry passing multiple tests including driving at low speed on a chopper with a 30" over fork. That,s how, I believe, the trail numbers became of importance.

Interesting, swedes had huge neck rakes, totaling 60 degrees in combined rake.

But sometime in 90s they restricted the neck rake to no more than 45 degrees...go figure. Knowing Scandinavians have some of the best registry in the world( data used in retrospective medical studies all the time) - could it be that their analysis of accidents' statistics lead to that decision ? Or it was totally subjective, impressionistic 'wisdom' of ignorant idiots bureaucrats ?
I can remember the Swedes proving with geometry that the long forks were quite safe but I can't remember about the 45 degree rule, then again my memory is not what it used to be. An arbitrary rake such as 45 degrees does sound like something a bureaucrat would come up with. Something easy to measure and easy to create a rule with corresponding fines for those who break the rule. Dumb to be sure, and crafted by idiot bureaucrats, I work in a govt department I can confirm that a govt department is incapable of making the right decision.
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