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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moeman
Nothing wrong with making a lot of MONEY!! I agree the people that do it in a criminal way should be punished and shouldn't receive a dime when fired/ convicted. I think CEO's are way over paid for shitty service to a company. However, someone who works their ass off to get ahead should do just that, get ahead, they shouldn't have to shoulder the lazy ass that does nothing to better themself. However, we already do and if the dems had it their way we would be doing more for the leaching population. Greed is out of control, but not all RICH people are greedy. Greed and being rich are too different things. Yes, some that are rich are greedy to, but not all!!! Why should I feel bad that I make more then someone else??? Or why should I be punished for making more then someone else by paying a higher percentage of my income to taxes?? Even at the same percentage as someone making less then me I would still be paying more then them.
I agree that not all the rich are greedy and also that not all the greedy are rich. There's a great incentive in this country for people to apply themselves, work long and hard to achieve their dreams/goals. That's why people from other countries want to move here. Although the land of opportunity has been taking some hits and there are other economies that will provide ladders to success, we still have professionals and skilled workers from other countries who would like to become citizens here. At the very least, it provides rich opportunity for their children.

I believe there's rationale for progressive income tax rates to try to mitigate even greater accumulations of wealth by fewer people and widening the gap between the middle class and the upper class. But I'm no expert in that area. That's something I'd have to look at more closely--but it certainly doesn't apply to me.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CENJIM
Once again, do some reading on Gramm Leach Bliley. That was before GWB got elected. He's clean on that, but it was a Republican bill written by Republicans to deregulate lending. Say what you want about Clinton's administration putting pressure on Fannie/Freddie. Both sides have been feeding at the trough on this and GLB Act made it all possible.
Quoting part of my own post here!

So now I read that Bill Clinton has tried to wash his hands on GLB!

http://moneynews.com/streettalk/dere...01/136247.html

I've got a feeling he's not really working to get Barry Oh! elected.

"In the interview, Clinton provides extensive insight into his thinking then about financial deregulation. "

I wonder what that extensive insight is?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:30 PM
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Wow!
So now as I read on, I've found that factcheck.org did some extensive study on GLB and the current crisis. And they support what Clinton said!

(Always need to keep in mind that factcheck is non-partisan, deals in verifying factual information, and then makes conclusions based upon that. Doesn't mean they can't screw up, but this is an interesting evaluation by their staff.) I'm sure there will be other analysis over the coming years by many other writers and researchers.


From that website:

"The truth is, however, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act had little if anything to do with the current crisis. In fact, economists on both sides of the political spectrum have suggested that the act has probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been.

Last year the liberal writer Robert Kuttner, in a piece in The American Prospect, argued that "this old-fashioned panic is a child of deregulation." But even he didn't lay the blame primarily on Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Instead, he described "serial bouts of financial deregulation" going back to the 1970s. And he laid blame on policies of the Federal Reserve Board under Alan Greenspan, saying "the Fed has become the chief enabler of a dangerously speculative economy."

What Gramm-Leach-Bliley did was to allow commercial banks to get into investment banking. Commercial banks are the type that accept deposits and make loans such as mortgages; investment banks accept money for investment into stocks and commodities. In 1998, regulators had allowed Citicorp, a commercial bank, to acquire Traveler's Group, an insurance company that was partly involved in investment banking, to form Citigroup. That was seen as a signal that Glass-Steagall was a dead letter as a practical matter, and Gramm-Leach-Bliley made its repeal formal. But it had little to do with mortgages.

Actually, deregulated banks were not the major culprits in the current debacle. Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo and J.P. Morgan Chase have weathered the financial crisis in reasonably good shape, while Bear Stearns collapsed and Lehman Brothers has entered bankruptcy, to name but two of the investment banks which had remained independent despite the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Observers as diverse as former Clinton Treasury official and current Berkeley economist Brad DeLong and George Mason University's Tyler Cowen, a libertarian, have praised Gramm-Leach-Bliley has having softened the crisis. The deregulation allowed Bank of America and J.P. Morgan Chase to acquire Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns. And Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have now converted themselves into unified banks to better ride out the storm. That idea is also endorsed by former President Clinton himself, who, in an interview with Maria Bartiromo published in the Sept. 24 issue of Business Week, said he had no regrets about signing the repeal of Glass-Steagall:
Bill Clinton (Sept. 24): Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn't signed that bill. ...You know, Phil Gramm and I disagreed on a lot of things, but he can't possibly be wrong about everything. On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I'd be glad to look at the evidence. But I can't blame [the Republicans]. This wasn't something they forced me into.
***************************

No, Blame the Democrats!
The McCain-Palin campaign fired back with an ad laying blame on Democrats and Obama. Titled "Rein," it highlights McCain's 2006 attempt to "rein in Fannie and Freddie." The ad accurately quotes the Washington Post as saying "Washington failed to rein in" the two government-sponsored entities, the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae") and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation ("Freddie Mac"), both of which ran into trouble by underwriting too many risky home mortgages to buyers who have been unable to repay them. The ad then blames Democrats for blocking McCain's reforms. As evidence, it even offers a snippet of an interview in which former President Clinton agrees that "the responsibility that the Democrats have" might lie in resisting his own efforts to "tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." We're then told that the crisis "didn't have to happen."

It's true that key Democrats opposed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, which would have established a single, independent regulatory body with jurisdiction over Fannie and Freddie – a move that the Government Accountability Office had recommended in a 2004 report. Current House Banking Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts opposed legislation to reorganize oversight in 2000 (when Clinton was still president), 2003 and 2004, saying of the 2000 legislation that concern about Fannie and Freddie was "overblown." Just last summer, Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd called a Bush proposal for an independent agency to regulate the two entities "ill-advised."

But saying that Democrats killed the 2005 bill "while Mr. Obama was notably silent" oversimplifies things considerably. The bill made it out of committee in the Senate but was never brought up for consideration. At that time, Republicans had a majority in the Senate and controlled the agenda. Democrats never got the chance to vote against it or to mount a filibuster to block it.

By the time McCain signed on to the legislation, it was too late to prevent the crisis anyway. McCain added his name on May 25, 2006, when the housing bubble had already nearly peaked. Standard & Poor's Case-Schiller Home Price Index, which measures residential housing prices in 20 metropolitan regions and then constructs a composite index for the entire United States, shows that housing prices began falling in July 2006, barely two months later.


The Real Deal


So who is to blame? There's plenty of blame to go around, and it doesn't fasten only on one party or even mainly on what Washington did or didn't do. As The Economist magazine noted recently, the problem is one of "layered irresponsibility ... with hard-working homeowners and billionaire villains each playing a role." Here's a partial list of those alleged to be at fault:

  • The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.
  • Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.
  • Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.
  • Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.
  • The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.
  • Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.
  • Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.
  • Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.
  • The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.
  • An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.
  • Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.
The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) is just political grandstanding. We have no advice to offer on how best to solve the financial crisis. But these sorts of partisan caricatures can only make the task more difficult.

–by Joe Miller and Brooks Jackson

Sources

Benston, George J. The Separation of Commercial and Investment Banking: The Glass-Steagall Act Revisited and Reconsidered. Oxford University Press, 1990.

Tabarrok, Alexander. "The Separation of Commercial and Investment Banking: The Morgans vs. The Rockefellers." The Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics 1:1 (1998), pp. 1 - 18.

Kuttner, Robert. "The Bubble Economy." The American Prospect, 24 September 2007.

"The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999." U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs. Accessed 29 September 2008.

Bartiromo, Maria. "Bill Clinton on the Banking Crisis, McCain and Hillary." Business Week, 24 September 2008.

Standard and Poor's. "Case-Schiller Home Price History." Accessed 30 September 2008.

"Understanding the Tax Reform Debate: Background, Criteria and Questions." Government Accountability Office. September 2005.

Bianco, Katalina M. "The Subprime Lending Crisis: Causes and Effects of the Mortgage Meltdown." CCH. Accessed 29 September 2008.
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The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 02:53 AM
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Things I could never understand:

1.) How some people can worry more about what others make and have than what they make and have.

2.) How can you be poor and buy lotto tickets at the same time.

3.) If your're buying lotto tickets, who's trying to get something for nothing?

4.) How can you be poor, 100lbs. over weight, walk out of a grocery store with three carts overflowing with ribs, one cart with barbecue sauce all of which you paid with food stamps along with four gallons of Wild Irish Rose, a hand full of lotto tickets that you paid with cash that is being loaded into a 2008 Escalade.

Can someone explain this to me.

I'm just a poor uneducated white boy who lives in the hood.

Last edited by LSCTommy; 10-02-2008 at 03:10 AM..
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:20 AM
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Cenjim:

Good last post, good information and like you said, hopefully most if not all has some weight to it. In the end, it pretty much sums up the events that led to the current crisis. Backs my point of the fact that BOTH parties had a hand in this mess and that it was well on it's way before GWB. People have short memory-loss when it serves them best.

As for the tax rate issue. It will never happen so that isn't ever going to be an issue. However, if common sense would take over instead of the mind set by those in power that would rather step over dollars to pick up pennies. A flat rate tax across the board would create billions more in tax revenue and would cut billions of dollars from the current goverment annual budget. It would create tax revenue because the deductions and loop-holes could be eliminated and wouldn't be needed. You can increase the tax rate on the rich/corporations. However, they will find ways to pay less in taxes in the end. So in the end you raise the tax rate and collect less taxes. The goverment's annual budget could be cut due to the fact that a flat rate tax would pretty much mean there would be no need for the IRS. The savings in that area alone could fund hundreds of programs for the poor, disabled, and many other services. It would also allow a decrease in the need for tax revenue. The IRS is one of the most costly entities of the goverment. I would have to look it up again, but the cost to run the IRS takes a huge portion of each dollar collected in taxes. It is like a non-profit charity. Some of these so called charities collect millions of dollars for their cause, but by the time the money leaves the charity and is delivered to the actual cause, the amount in most cases has been cut in half if not more. SO why not just send your money directly to the cause??? Same with taxes, by the time your money gets to the causes it has been filtered down so much it barely does anything.

NH has no income tax and no sales tax. SO we don't need those departments. We have corporate taxes and property taxes, we also have higher vehicle reg. fees. However, these things only effect someone that has a corporation, house, and car. I have all three. So I pay a HUGE amount of taxes compared to the employed, renter, that walks to work. Does this mean they can't afford these things, NOPE. It just means they barely pay any taxes on the income they make. I have no children old enough to goto public school. However, a big portion of my property tax goes to the local school system. I pay a lot each month for my daughter to goto pre-school. However, renters in my area that have children don't pay property taxes, but have kids in the local school system. I am paying for their children to goto school.

So where is this incentive you mention to get rich in this country?? If taxes are raised on the 'rich' and corporations. The rich will spend less, invest less and move money out of this country. Corporations will cut jobs, production and move things out of this country faster then they are right now. If anything in this country the incentive program is to be a lazy person with multiple children. The incentives only grow everytime a DEM opens their mouth on Capital Hill.

Why do you think the rich and super rich have off-shore corporations set up so they can filter their money to them?? The Caymans has more US corporations then the US......lol J/K but the reality is tons of them are out there to avoid the tax system here in the US.

Last edited by 280chopper; 10-02-2008 at 06:26 AM..
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:33 AM
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[edit] Reorganization of the late 1990s
A bipartisan commission was created with several mandates, among them to increase customer service and improve collections.[3] Congress later enacted the Internal Revenue Service Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998.[4] As a result of that Act the IRS now functions under four major operating divisions: Large & Mid-Size Business (LMSB), Small Business / Self-Employed (SB/SE), Wage and Investment (W&I), and Tax Exempt & Government Entities (TE/GE). The IRS also includes a criminal law enforcement division. While there is some evidence that customer service has improved, lost tax revenues in 2001 were over $290 billion.[5]

$290 billion in one year, yeah this is a well run goverment agency. What are we looking at today, a $700billion dollar bailout, based on this loss claim, we loose that much every 2 1/2 years........lol
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:38 AM
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Yes, just understanding the IRS tax code itself is kinda like trying to figure out the secrets of the universe.
I'm very interested in alternatives to the current tax mess. Simplification should be key.

Administrative costs (and much of government is administrative costs) should be minimized. I'd bet the money that alone would free up would go a long way to propelling growth in this country.

As to your question on incentive or no incentive, here's an interesting parable I got yesterday in email:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers", he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:44 AM
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Now, I want to add a second parable with a different spin (BTW, I'm not clever enough to have written either of these! ):

At this bar located on an remote island, the ten men actually drink vodka instead of beer. And along with each shot of vodka, the bartender provides a nice tall glass of orange juice. In addition to making the vodka go down easier, the orange juice also provides a vital supply of Vitamin C, without which the men would all develop scurvy, because they live on a small island where produce is limited.

Everybody was happy with this arrangement except the tenth man. He had a masters degree in economics from the University of Georgia, and he saw that there were ways to improve the efficiency of the vodka/orange juice consumption system that he and the other nine men participated in. One day he stayed at the bar after the other men went home so that he could have a word with the bartender.

“Moe,” he began “You know we all love drinking vodka at this bar, but I'm beginning to think that it doesn't make sense for you to serve us orange juice as well. You see, I've done the math and figured out that if you cut out the OJ, you could charge us all $20 less while still making more than enough to cover the cost of the vodka.”

“But where will all of you men get your life-saving Vitamin C?” Moe asked.
“I've thought of that too,” replied the tenth man. “There’s a mini-market on the other side of the island that sells better-tasting OJ for $1.75 a glass.”

“You mean, the mini-market that you own?”

“Sir, I hope that you would not be so gauche as to question my integrity!” The tenth man replied with great indignation.

“Uh, no… I wouldn't do that,” Moe conceded, “but what’s wrong with the current system? None of the other men have complained about it before.”

“That’s because most of them are just lucky duckies who don't have to bear the full burden of the oppressive prices you charge for orange juice,” the tenth man answered. “Trust me, I've done the math on this, and the entire ten-man group will be better off if you stop serving us the juice. If they trust in the market rather than depending on handouts from your bar, they'll enjoy higher-quality juice and they'll feel better about having earned the juice on their own.

Think of it another way - if you don't make this change, I'll be forced to move to another island where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. And then, not only will you lose my business, but you also won't be able to come over to my house every Friday night to play poker.

Once the tenth man put it that way, Moe finally saw the wisdom of the plan, and so he decided to stop serving juice, even going as far as to chop down his orange trees and sell all of his juice glasses.

The next day when all ten men came to the bar, the other nine were surprised to find that their vodka was served without juice. When they asked the tenth man about the change, he replied:

“I have great news! We no longer have to put up with Moe’s inefficient, poor-quality orange juice. He’s going to charge us $20 less (which we will divide proportionately, as we do with the bill every night), and we'll be able to buy better juice at the mini-market for $1.75 a glass.”

The seventh, eighth, and ninth man all thought for a moment and agreed that the change made perfect sense, but the other men still were unsatisfied with the answer, and the sixth man spoke up.

“It looks to me like I only save $1.00 on my bar tab, but you save $10.00. Why should I go along with this?

“Class warfare!” Cried the tenth man. “I don't know what you're talking about. I'm only saving 16% on my bar tab, while you save 33%, and fifth man over there saves 100%!”

“Yes, but I now have to spend $1.75 at your market to buy our own orange juice, meaning that I'm spending more than I was before. Plus, men number one through four don't get any benefit from the reduced bar tab. They couldn't afford to buy juice at your market before, so what makes you think they can afford it now? Is it fair for them to go without orange juice so that you can save money?”

“Well, if they love orange juice so much, maybe they should've thought twice before they decided to be lazy and poor,” replied the tenth man. “And while you're talking about fairness - is it fair that I should spend my hard-earned money for all of you to get crappy orange juice from Moe instead of letting the free market work its magic so that we all benefit from better juice at lower prices?”

“You keep talking about everybody benefiting, but the way I see it, you and men numbers seven through nine all get richer while the rest of us get poorer, and some of us die of scurvy. How can that be good for our ten-man society?”

“There you go with your class warfare again,” answered the tenth man. “This just proves why it makes sense for me to make all of the decisions around here. If you understood economics the way I do, you’d see that we all get an average rebate of $2.00, which is more than enough to cover the cost of orange juice at the market. You see? Everybody wins!”

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Both parables are great ways to get people thinking about the way things are and offer challenges on finding the solution that works best.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:55 AM
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Tommy that Lottery question reminds me of a client I once had who had a gambling problem. In his case it was buying Keno tickets, I think, and maybe Numbers or Powerball. In any case he had very little money to live on and saw the Lottery as his ticket to a better life.

Each month all he'd have left is a bunch of losing tickets.

I suggested to him that he should put his dollar into an envelope every time he thought he should buy a ticket and then write his choice of numbers on a piece of paper to go along with that dollar. At the end of the month he could count all the dollars he would have spent and then review his number choices to see if he had picked any winners.

This way, he'd most likely have saved money that month and also seen that his losing tickets would have overtaken any winnings.

Only problem was he wouldn't agree to do it.
And if he had agreed and then found he missed out on a big winning, he probably would have killed me!
LOL!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-02-2008, 07:07 AM
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Those are good ones and I have seen them before.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 10:36 AM
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While reading the first parable Immediately I latch onto why are those four guys drinking for free, and how dare they sponge off the ones that are paying. I think it is a good analogy to our system.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:06 PM
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In case anyone wanted to know how a person on food stamps can buy ipods and cellphones and booze, etc., with stamps. They sell their $100 book to whomever for $50 cash.

There is little incentive to acheive when the liberal mentality is "everyone can contribute something" --which is false since most people are talentless underachieving slobs. In a huge bit of irony, liberals are more like Christians than they think, because the triumph of Christianity was to promise paradise to anyone --even the lowest of the low.

And there will always be more bums and underachievers than great people; e.g., an endless supply of mindless idiots.

But hey... I'm not getting political or anything.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:25 PM
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Jeff, there's definitely some truth to your post.
What bothers me alot about our present time is the absolutely poor quality of the education of our youth. I do not know what the cause is--whether it's kids w/o curiosity, kids just out for fun, spoiled, whatever, or a lack of talented teachers or a combination of all that and other stuff.

There's the whole Bell Curve deal that describes the distribution of intelligence, so the percentages of kids with lower abilities remains the same (approximately) but the numbers are far greater because of the population size.

There's actually been a decrease in the numbers of people on welfare, but many of those either still on or now off, don't always make good workers.

We live in a society where so many electronics gadgets are tempting and calling people to buy ME! And it seems so many of the unachievers are those whose attention span is extremely short.

Add all of that to a society where it is much more difficult to find employment that matches up with someone w/o good skills. Many years ago, even those people who were referred to as the village idiot were offered menial jobs and they took those jobs and did the work--maybe not as well as others, but they did the work.

I remember a roommate I had in college. We grew up together. He'd need money so he'd sell his stereo, radio, skis, whatever--because he knew his father would replace them no problem. That's the behavior you'd expect from a marginal person, but some with intelligence just take the easy way out. His behavior was like what you describe of the Food Stamp people.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
There's the whole Bell Curve deal that describes the distribution of intelligence, so the percentages of kids with lower abilities remains the same (approximately) but the numbers are far greater because of the population size.
I'd forgotten about that. The Bell Curve is an interesting lense to look through.
Quote:
What bothers me alot about our present time is the absolutely poor quality of the education of our youth. I do not know what the cause is--whether it's kids w/o curiosity, kids just out for fun, spoiled, whatever, or a lack of talented teachers or a combination of all that and other stuff.
In my opinion, it's the lack of filters on the information available. I don't mean censorship, I mean that there is much more for young people to choose from or be exposed to, but so much of it is dumbed down junk. This and future generations have it better from a quantity and availability standpoint; and also a choice standpoint, but the quality aspect --while not actually disappearing, is simply getting lost in the ever widening pool of poor quality.

Combined with a general feeling of cynicism which appears to be the one unifying attitude today, even the good info gets treated suspiciously.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:49 PM
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My father is a math consultant for schools, he has some great stories of the idiots teaching our young ones. He bangs his head against the wall on a daily basis. At 72 years old he has seen it all and should be retired, but he still feels the need to try and help the children learn math correctly.

The problem with the DEMS let's get it from the rich and give it to the poor thinking is: Once there isn't enough RICH people to get it from, once there aren't enough CORPORATIONS to get it from, where does it comes from to give it away. This is why it doesn't work. At some point the level of giving goes past the level of taking, because there is no place left to take from. Can you think of any countries that have this issue?? (trick question) Can you say Communist State. I think there is a connection......lol
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