Club Chopper Forums ychrome  

Go Back   Club Chopper Forums > GENERAL CHOPPER TALK AREA > Chopper Builder's Log > Big Bear Chopper Builds

Welcome to Club Chopper!  The World's largest and coolest place to be on the net if you dig the following!

  •  » Custom Bikes
  •  » Killer Paint
  •  » Old School Craftsmanship
  •  » Building and Wrenching
  •  » Hot Babes
  •  » Chopper Build Logs

...then you have come to the right place!

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

Chopper Tech
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Tech Article
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Club Chop Gallery

Club Chopper Gallery

Submit Your Photos!

Active Threads
"Not the Normal" builds, from WCC
Last Post: whitegator
Posted On: Today
Replies: 17,088
Views: 2,828,153
starting issue
Last Post: beerman1378
Posted On: Today
Replies: 1
Views: 52
brake parts needed
Last Post: txprostreet
Posted On: Today
Replies: 0
Views: 32
14 Chopper of the Month entries for May 2013
Last Post: Tx51
Posted On: Today
Replies: 4
Views: 126
compensator nut help
Last Post: Am4wag
Posted On: Today
Replies: 1
Views: 59
More...
  #241 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Mr Scary's Avatar
Super Moderator
Visit my Photo Gallery
Lifetime Contributor  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Behind the curtain, OZ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: Some kind of big ass V2, Alcohaulin' Ass
Posts: 35,400
Send a message via ICQ to Mr Scary
Not Ranked     
If you guys insist on acting like little girls, could you at least keep my name out of it?!
__________________

^ ^ ^Click The Pic^ ^ ^
<--124...127-->
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #242 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 01:21 PM
Lightnin'Larry's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010, Brouhard Designs chopper, S&S124TC
Posts: 590
Not Ranked     
Hey CENJIM,

Yep and you were right my brother. I was not going to post anymore but felt I needed to set the record straight IMO. Yes there were metallurgy tests done and I have refereed to that several times. BBC has a certified copy of it but they never refer to it as you have seen. Yes there will be discovery and I expect to find out a lot from that.
I too have not seen any reports here of neck welds failing, yet. Just because I was the first one doesn't mean that I'll be the only one. Did find a complaint on the NHTSA's web site about a swingarm weld breaking on a 2005 Venom so there is some evidence in my favor there.
Yes, we will have to wait to see where all this goes and if the lawsuit against BBC back in New York with the guy who lost his leg is any indication (it was first filed in early 2005) it will be a long time before we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CENJIM
I think I might have mentioned earlier either in this thread or another similar one that everything here was probably being saved on a computer somewhere. It's in the public domain once you hit the submit button. Once it's saved it can't be edited without leaving a trail.

So a ways back Larry says he's not going to post further. Then he does.

And everybody starts pissing one way or the other with nothing but a few photographs to refer to.

Any metallurgy tests done? Where are they in the court of public opinion?

If there's a court suit, there's gonna be discovery. But we don't get that here do we?

Maybe everything Larry said is true. Maybe it's not.
But I haven't heard reports of any other neck welds breaking on these bikes since I came on here several years ago. So maybe he did get a defective frame. Or maybe someone ground the welds. Or maybe, maybe, maybe... who knows the possibilities that come into play here?

It is what it is, and if it goes to court and a judgement is made, then it will be public knowledge and we will all know what the facts are.

If Larry settles out of court (and it looks like from what he posted at 1:11 today that is what he was hoping for) I'm sure there will be a stipulation as to what he can reveal and what he can not reveal. So I don't see this thread as a Public Service Announcement by any means.

We'll have to sit back and see where it all goes.

I'm not an attorney, but if I were Larry I'd be dealing with the issue at hand and minding the advice of a good attorney.
Reply With Quote
  #243 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 01:22 PM
JC's Avatar
JC JC is offline
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 74-74
Posts: 1,327
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Scary
If you guys insist on acting like little girls?!
Those are great tactics for keeping your name out of it???
I can't stop cracking up man..

Hey, you left of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at the end of your message?

Just messin with you man!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by JC; 03-04-2008 at 01:27 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #244 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 01:54 PM
rastoy's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Not quite sure, VA
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 01 Fatboy,65 Matchless, 83 V-65, +more
Posts: 6,083
Send a message via AIM to rastoy
Not Ranked     
It's not slander if it's true (I just heard that on Judge Judy!).
Larry has not said anything to slander BBC. He has presented his issues period.
I look at it more like a public service announcement. It's directed to guys that own that frame, telling them to check it. Just think of how Larry would feel if he didn't tell anyone and someone gets killed because their neck broke off.
__________________
Try to learn something new every day and don't accept everything as fact.

Nevermind, you're hopeless.
Reply With Quote
  #245 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:02 PM
Barefoot Choppa's Avatar
Douchebaggery
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Barefoot Country, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 05 Barefoot Choppa
Posts: 28,822
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Scary
If you guys insist on acting like little girls, could you at least keep my name out of it?!
I'm not the one that brought your name into this Frank, and I'm also not the one acting like a little girl!!!!!
__________________
...Handle every stressfull situation like a dog...if you can't eat it or hump it...piss on it and walk away...
"if i got all bent out of shape over folks i don't respect... i might wake up with your life"
Reply With Quote
  #246 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:03 PM
Mr Scary's Avatar
Super Moderator
Visit my Photo Gallery
Lifetime Contributor  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Behind the curtain, OZ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: Some kind of big ass V2, Alcohaulin' Ass
Posts: 35,400
Send a message via ICQ to Mr Scary
Not Ranked     
Then let it go man!
__________________

^ ^ ^Click The Pic^ ^ ^
<--124...127-->
Reply With Quote
  #247 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:04 PM
Lightnin'Larry's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010, Brouhard Designs chopper, S&S124TC
Posts: 590
Not Ranked     
slander


A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

The operative terms here are "untruthful" and "false". The burden of proof is upon BBC to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything I have said here is "untruthful" or "false". That will be extremely difficult as any further testing on the frame will only reveal that I have been nothing but truthful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CENJIM
All these guys posting on Larry's side can actually help BBC's case of libel. Who knows, maybe they'll go for slander too, but I'd be worried more about libel.
Reply With Quote
  #248 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:06 PM
Barefoot Choppa's Avatar
Douchebaggery
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Barefoot Country, NJ
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 05 Barefoot Choppa
Posts: 28,822
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Scary
Then let it go man!
You know how many times I have tried!!!! And that fuck just keeps on bashing me every fuckin time. Shits getting real fuckin old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
...Handle every stressfull situation like a dog...if you can't eat it or hump it...piss on it and walk away...
"if i got all bent out of shape over folks i don't respect... i might wake up with your life"
Reply With Quote
  #249 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:48 PM
CENJIM's Avatar
Super Moderator
Visit my Photo Gallery
Lifetime Contributor  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Coventry, RI
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2005 BBC Venom Chopper, S&S 96
Posts: 8,804
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin'Larry
slander
The operative terms here are "untruthful" and "false". The burden of proof is upon BBC to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything I have said here is "untruthful" or "false". That will be extremely difficult as any further testing on the frame will only reveal that I have been nothing but truthful.
Has an attorney told you the standard in this type of case is "Beyond the shadow of a doubt"?

I'm not certain it's "beyond the shadow of a doubt" as "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is the highest degree found in criminal trials etc. doesn't usually apply in civil cases.

Sometimes it's based upon "preponderance of the evidence"

The following is long and wordy, but it gives you better insight into what constitutes defamation and what the four defenses are. Your defense would be "truth". What happens if another examination of the frame by a different expert witness comes to a different conclusion? Is that a possibility?
I don't know.

LIBEL AND SLANDER occur when a person or entity communicates false information that damages the reputation of another person or entity. Slander occurs when the false and defamatory communication is spoken and heard. Libel occurs when the false and defamatory communication is written and seen. The laws governing libel and slander, which are collectively known as DEFAMATION, are identical.
A plaintiff who wishes to sue an individual or entity for libel or slander has the burden of proving four claims to a court: First, the plaintiff must show that the DEFENDANT communicated a defamatory statement. Second, the plaintiff must show that the statement was published or communicated to at least one other person besides the plaintiff. Third, the plaintiff must show that the communication was about the plaintiff and that another party receiving the communication could identify the plaintiff as the subject of the defamatory message. Fourth, the plaintiff must show that the communication injured the plaintiff's reputation.
There are four general defenses to slander and libel. Truth is an absolute defense. Consent by the plaintiff for the publication of the defamatory statement is a defense. Accidental publication of the statement is a defense. Finally, the statements of certain defendants in certain circumstances, such as lawyers, judges, jurors, and witnesses, are protected from defamation for PUBLIC POLICY reasons. This type of protection is known as privilege.
Prior to the American Revolution, the laws regarding slander and libel stemmed from the English COMMON LAW system, which permitted the publishers of LIBELOUS material to be prosecuted and jailed. James Madison saw the need for a press free from governmental restraint, and the Constitution's First Amendment reflects this value by prohibiting laws abridging FREEDOM OF SPEECH or FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.
Prior to 1964, laws regarding slander and libel were made by the states. Courts at that time did not believe that libelous or slanderous communications were protected by the United States Constitution; therefore, defamation was an issue for the states rather than the federal government.
In 1964, the United States Supreme Court heard the case of The New York Times v. Sullivan, and the law of defamation changed drastically. For the first time, the Supreme Court recognized that the First Amendment, which protects an individual's freedom of speech and expression, protects even speech and expression that is defamatory. In Sullivan, the plaintiff was a public official who sued The New York Times for libel after the newspaper published certain unfavorable allegations about him. The Supreme Court discussed the First Amendment to the Constitution, which states in part that "Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of speech or of the press." The First Amendment exists, according to the Court, to help protect and foster the free flow and exchange of ideas, particularly on public or political issues. The Founding Fathers of the United States valued open debates regarding political issues or governments, determining that citizens in a democracy need a free marketplace of ideas in order to become informed and make good decisions. Open debates often become caustic and emotional, with opponents sharply attacking one another in the effort to persuade others. Sanctioning defamatory speech or expression would put an end to such attacks, but sanctions would also jeopardize the free marketplace of ideas by effectively censoring free and open debate.
The Court saw the need for balancing an individual's right to be protected from false and defamatory accusations with the country's right to be informed via a free marketplace of ideas. It determined that in the case of a public official, such as the police official in Sullivan, the First Amendment rights of free speech and expression outweigh the public official's rights unless the public official can prove that the defendant acted with actual MALICE. Actual malice means that the defendant who communicates a defamatory statement does so knowing that the statement is false or very likely false. The defendant need not harbor ill will toward the plaintiff for the public official to recover in an action for slander or libel; the public official need only prove that the defendant knew that the defamatory statement was false or had serious doubts as to its truth.
The actual malice standard only applies to public officials or public figures who sue for slander or libel. Other examples of public officials include elected officials, such as governors or senators, or non-elected government employees with substantial responsibility or control over public affairs. Courts have held that candidates for public office also are public officials and must prove the actual malice standard before prevailing in libel or slander lawsuits.
The Supreme Court in 1967 expanded the actual malice standard for public officials to include public figures as well. Public figures, unlike public officials, are not government officials but instead are extremely prominent private citizens whose prominence allows them to use the mass media to influence policy. Public figures, by the Court's definition, thrust themselves into the public arena. Examples of public figures include famous movie actors, musicians, professional athletes, authors, and others who are so prominent as to be household names.
Courts also recognize limited-purpose public figures, who may not be known in all households but are known for their involvement in a limited public controversy. Examples of limited-purpose public figures may include an attorney representing a notorious criminal in a highly publicized trial or the winner of a multi-million dollar lottery. Courts do not allow the media to create public figures or limited purpose public figures merely by thrusting private citizens into the spotlight; public figures must voluntarily place themselves in the spotlight by, for example, deciding to buy a lottery ticket or by deciding to play football professionally. Public figures and limited-purpose public figures must demonstrate a defendant's actual malice before prevailing in a libel or slander lawsuit.
Elements of Defamation

To prove that a written or verbal statement is defamatory, it is sufficient for a plaintiff to prove that at least one person who received the communication believed that it was detrimental to the plaintiff's reputation. A message that decreases respect for the plaintiff or confidence in the plaintiff or causes disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions about the plaintiff is detrimental to the plaintiff. Even a message that is intended as a joke may be defamatory if at least one person believes it to be serious.
The plaintiff must next prove that the defamatory statement was published. In the law of defamation, the term publication merely means that the statement, either written or spoken, was communicated to someone other than the plaintiff. It is not necessary that the statement be printed or distributed for it to be considered published slander or libel. Publication may occur when the defendant is speaking to another person or group of people. It may occur when the defendant sends an e-mail message or writes a personal letter. It may occur when the defendant speaks loudly on an elevator and other people hear. It may occur when the defendant writes a newspaper article or book or draws a cartoon and posts it on a bulletin board. However, if the defendant intends to keep communication with the plaintiff private and communicates in a way that demonstrates that intent, publication does not occur when a third party inadvertently receives the communication. For example, a defendant who faxes the plaintiff a letter critical of the plaintiff's work skills is not guilty of publishing the letter if the plaintiff's co-worker receives and reads the letter by mistake.
An entity that republishes a defamatory statement is equally liable as the original publisher. This law means that a newspaper editor who receives a letter to the editor defaming another person is just as liable as the letter's writer if the letter ends up in print in the newspaper. However, this rule applies only if the entity knew or had reason to know the defamatory nature of the statement. Therefore, libraries and bookstores usually are not liable for republishing libelous material.
A plaintiff may not recover for libel or slander without proving that the defamatory statement identified the plaintiff. A defamatory statement that names the plaintiff clearly identifies the plaintiff as the subject of the defamation. Not all defamatory remarks name the subject, however, and defamatory messages alone do not damage reputations. A damaged reputation only occurs when recipients of the message know who the message is defaming. Defamation against one unidentified member of a general group or category of people is not slanderous or libelous. For example, a false ACCUSATION that an otherwise unidentified student at the state university cheated on final exams is not slanderous or libelous because the student remains unidentifiable. The question becomes more difficult if the message offers more identifiable information. A false accusation that a red-haired female business major who lives on the second floor of her sorority house and drives a black sports car cheated on a final exam in her accounting class could be slanderous or libelous if the female business major could show that others identified her as the subject of the defamation.
The final element of slander or libel is that the defamatory statement damaged the plaintiff's reputation, and that the plaintiff suffered damages as a result. Certain defamatory messages are slanderous or libelous PER SE, meaning that the plaintiff need not prove that the message damaged his or her reputation. Libel or slander per se occurs when the message accuses the plaintiff of committing a crime, of having a loathsome disease, or of being professionally incompetent. Other types of messages may damage the plaintiff's reputation, but because they are not per se slanderous or libelous, it remains the plaintiff's burden to prove that the defamation damaged his or her reputation.

Defenses to Libel and Slander

If the defendant can show that the substance of a defamatory statement is essentially true, then the plaintiff's claim for slander or libel will fail. For example, assume that the defendant publicly ACCUSED his boss of cheating on taxes. The boss could sue for slander or libel, depending on whether the accusation was written or spoken. If the defendant could prove that the boss actually did cheat on taxes, the defendant would prevail. If the defendant had no proof of such tax cheating, the plaintiff would prevail.
If the plaintiff consents to the publication of the defamatory information, the plaintiff may not prevail in a lawsuit for slander or libel. This defense most typically arises when the plaintiff has signed a valid document releasing the defendant from liability for statements made regarding the plaintiff. For example, an employee may ask a former employer to write a letter of recommendation regarding the employee's professional and career skills to assist the employee in obtaining a new job. The former employer may, as a precaution, insist that the employee sign a release of liability to ensure that the letter of recommendation does not result in a libel lawsuit. If the former employer then reveals unflattering descriptions of the employee's work habits in the letter, the employee may be precluded from suing for libel even if the unflattering remarks are untrue.
Defamatory statements made during court proceedings or written in legal documents for purposes of LITIGATION generally are privileged, or protected, from slander or libel lawsuits. This privilege exists for reasons of public policy. A witness at a criminal trial, for example, would have difficulty testifying completely and truthfully about witnessing a crime if she feared that her statements could result in a slander lawsuit against her. Similarly, a lawyer who prepares a lawsuit must describe in writing the nature of the accusation against the defendant, and such court pleadings are almost always defamatory in nature. Justice would not be served if the judicial process were hampered by the constant threat of slander or libel lawsuits.
__________________
Ua mau ke ea o ka `aina i ka pono

The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness.

***********************************

*****************************

"Gentlemen, we must all hang together or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Reply With Quote
  #250 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:52 PM
fleafly's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: st paul, mn
Bike Year, Make, Engine: CFL 124
Posts: 331
Not Ranked     
CENJIM, sure, in the case of libel, Larry posting pictures of a non-defective product, would produce harm to BBC's reputation. There is a key word here. I'll give you a million dollars if you guess which one.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #251 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 02:55 PM
fleafly's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: st paul, mn
Bike Year, Make, Engine: CFL 124
Posts: 331
Not Ranked     
One other thing, are you a lawyer?
Reply With Quote
  #252 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 03:05 PM
rayfin's Avatar
Club Chopper Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: sioux city, IA
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2006 Superglide, wifes 80 KZ550 bobber
Posts: 1,845
Send a message via AIM to rayfin Send a message via Yahoo to rayfin
Not Ranked     
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
__________________
Please watch "Loose Change 911" on youtube.

Rayfin Custom Upholstery
712-252-5878
Sioux City, Iowa
Rayfinseats@gmail.com
Facebook: RAY FIN
Facebook: Rayfin Custom Upholstery
Started doing custom upholstery in 1982. 44B Metalworker USARNG 1978. Electronics Technician.
Reply With Quote
  #253 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 03:09 PM
Lightnin'Larry's Avatar
CC Member/Contributor
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2010, Brouhard Designs chopper, S&S124TC
Posts: 590
Not Ranked     
Hey CENJIM,

Oops, my bad, I did mean to say beyond a reasonable doubt. As to the preponderance of the evidence, I would be happy to have a second opinion by another certified weld failure analysis company. Nope don't have a problem with that in the least.
Also, wouldn't BBC, under the preponderance of evidence, be required to prove that everything that they have said is in fact true as well as trying to prove what I have said is false?

Last edited by Lightnin'Larry; 03-04-2008 at 03:22 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #254 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 03:24 PM
ToyKraz's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 1,017
Send a message via Yahoo to ToyKraz
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlwjr13
You know whats really funny, this wasn't even said in this thread:
Short term memory issues? It was in this thread and directed at me. Stop the drugs they are really starting to hurt you
Reply With Quote
  #255 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2008, 03:30 PM
CENJIM's Avatar
Super Moderator
Visit my Photo Gallery
Lifetime Contributor  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Coventry, RI
Bike Year, Make, Engine: 2005 BBC Venom Chopper, S&S 96
Posts: 8,804
Not Ranked     
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleafly
One other thing, are you a lawyer?
Back in post #236 on page 16 I already said I am not a lawyer (attorney), just have experience working with them on different cases over the years.

My point is that all of us who are not attorneys have preconceived ideas as to what constitutes what according to the law.
Often we are misinformed or interpret the law incorrectly and then end up holding the bag and the bag ain't filled with money.
__________________
Ua mau ke ea o ka `aina i ka pono

The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness.

***********************************

*****************************

"Gentlemen, we must all hang together or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:41 PM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0

CC Policy

The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubchopper.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners or moderators. clubchopper.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you or have been given the expressed written consent to post. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). For full policy, please click the "CC policy" link. Thank you for visiting the clubchopper.com
Links monetized by VigLink